Episode 139
Keira Barr:
The Secret To Radiant Skin Is In Your Mind
In this interview I'm joined by Dr. Keira Barr, an integrative dermatologist and wellness expert to talk about the importance of holistic skincare.
Dr. Barr shares her journey from academic dermatology into the integrative medicine space, particularly highlighting how the skin is affected by chronic and traumatic stress. We discuss the unique mind-body-skin connection, emphasizing that holistic healing involves emotional and mental well-being, as well as provide valuable insights into stress management and practical advice for maintaining healthy skin, especially during menopause.
First Aired on: May 13, 2024
Episode 139
Keira Barr:
The Secret To Radiant Skin Is In Your Mind
In this interview I'm joined by Dr. Keira Barr, an integrative dermatologist and wellness expert to talk about the importance of holistic skincare.
Dr. Barr shares her journey from academic dermatology into the integrative medicine space, particularly highlighting how the skin is affected by chronic and traumatic stress. We discuss the unique mind-body-skin connection, emphasizing that holistic healing involves emotional and mental well-being, as well as provide valuable insights into stress management and practical advice for maintaining healthy skin, especially during menopause.
First Aired on: May 13, 2024
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
Key Takeaways
Mind-Body-Skin Connection:
Stress, both chronic and traumatic, can severely impact skin health. Managing stress through a mind-body approach supports emotional well-being and improves skin conditions.Importance of Curiosity and Compassion:
Approach changes in your skin with curiosity and compassion, viewing them as an opportunity to learn what your body needs.Integrative Skincare:
External skincare (like moisturizing and protecting from UV rays) and internal care (nutrition, hydration, sleep, and stress management) are both critical. Focus on supporting your skin holistically.Menopausal Skin Health:
Hormonal shifts during menopause affect the skin, causing changes like dryness and hair loss. Use gentler cleansers, humectants, and emollients to nourish and protect aging skin.Feel Good to Look Good:
Rather than relying solely on cosmetic enhancements, feeling good from within will naturally reflect outwardly on your skin.Notable Quotes
When you feel good, you will look good. - Dr Keira Barr
What's showing up on your skin is an invitation to be more compassionate towards yourself. – Dr Keira Barr
What's showing up on your skin is an invitation to be more compassionate towards yourself. – Dr Keira Barr
Other Resources:
Connect with Keira Barr
Keira Barr has a gift for you!
Skin Care Quiz
Episode Transcript
Keira Barr:[00:00:00] brain research shows that our lived experience gets stored in our body as feeling memories as body memories. So in order to heal, we have to go to the body. So When people are saying, I feel stressed or I feel anxious. We explore that from an inside out perspective.
Julie Michelson: Dr. Kira, welcome to the podcast.
Keira Barr: Thank you. I'm excited for our conversation.
Julie Michelson: I am as well. I would just, we're starting the chat and I had to stop myself [00:01:00] cause I get excited and carried away. I would love for you to share your journey with listeners because you're what you're, what you're doing is so unique. Um, I would love to know how you came to be integrating all of these wonderful pieces of the wellness together along with dermatology.
Julie Michelson: Oh,
Keira Barr: many people, um, your journey evolves because, you know, stuff hits the fan and you're like, okay, what I was doing was totally not working. Um, so gosh, I've been in, uh, dermatology for over 20 years and, you know, was on the academic track, uh, focused with skin cancer and melanoma.
Keira Barr: Um, dermatopathology, right? So if you had a biopsy, I was looking at, uh, what was happening underneath the microscope and thought I was doing all the right things. I was running ultra marathons. I was juggling the kids, the career thought I was eating healthy and all the things [00:02:00] and my own skin. Started changing, um, growing moles, changing moles.
Keira Barr: They were becoming more atypical. I was having chronic pain, hormonal issues, gut problems. Um, and ultimately had to diagnose myself with early. melanoma, which as a melanoma specialist is a very humbling and horrifying experience. And so that really was my invitation and wake up call that, um, how I was living was not necessarily working for me and really brought my attention to to that mind skin connection to, um, the significant impact that chronic, uh, stress, later on, you know, traumatic stress brings to our lives.
Keira Barr: And it led me down this path of diving deep into integrative medicine, more of functional approach and mind body medicine. And we've known for a very, very long time, the [00:03:00] skin and the brain are embryologically linked. They're communicating with each other all the time, but it's a part of a skincare routine that gets overlooked.
Keira Barr: And so I really, um, have decided for myself and for so many of the women that I work with, that's been the missing piece. And so the focus of the work I do now is using a mind body approach to support the emotional and mental well being of individuals struggling with chronic skin conditions, because we know that stress can trigger a skin issue and or worsen an existing skin issue.
Keira Barr: So our skin affects our mood, our mood affects our skin, and no one's really supporting people in that way. So that is how I am here today.
Julie Michelson: it. I love it. And I love, I I'm always grateful. You know, it's never fun when we're in it. Right. And then it's the, the beauty and the journey is now you're, you have this [00:04:00] unique approach to serve others. And. I love that you said, you know, I thought I was eating healthy. You know, I thought I was doing the right things.
Julie Michelson: Um, I have a run, we have a running joke at the clinic because almost everybody I meet says, you know, I eat healthy and I'm like, okay, what does that mean to you, you know, tell me more. Um, and then we give ourselves a grace of we're, we all do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time. Right.
Julie Michelson: And that's why we're having this conversation to give. People probably some new knowledge, the things that they haven't thought about. So you're, you know, the audience is very familiar with autoimmune conversations and, and, you know, they, we talk about the, the, what's going on in your gut is reflected on your skin.
Julie Michelson: You know, to me, it's like, Oh, of course, stress, gut, gut, skin, all the things. Um, but not even. Just [00:05:00] autoimmune. So we're not just talking about, you know, psoriatic arthritis or things like that. This is just in general using that mind body approach to improve skin health, skin condition, all the things.
Keira Barr: Yeah, so it's really interesting. So if you think about, you know, I think with gut health, there's been such a focus on gut health, um, as kind of the center of things because people consider it the second brain. Yeah. If you think about it, the, the, the brain and the skin are derived from the same embryologic layer of tissue.
Keira Barr: So. You've got your primary brain. Maybe your gut is your second brain. Your skin is actually like your outer brain
Julie Michelson: I like
Keira Barr: and they're all communicating with each other. And when it comes to chronic stress, traumatic stress, our body goes into survival mode. Uh, whether it's flight, flee, you know, shut down and freeze, uh, so, so many different strategies that we've developed [00:06:00] on, you know, on behalf of our survival.
Keira Barr: So nothing has gone wrong. Yeah. But the gut motility and gut function shuts down. when we are in that survival mode. So for me, looking at nervous system regulation, looking at how to soothe the nervous system, soothes the skin. And it also would help, you know, quiet the internal engine that is driving all of your other systems, including your gut function to decline or to be negatively impacted.
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Keira Barr: So, so yes, it's, it's, it's all connected and it isn't just autoimmune. You know, when we think about skin cancer, at least in the United States and Canada, they're the most prevalent cancers out of all the, there are more, skin cancers than all other cancers [00:07:00] combined on an annual basis. Most people don't know this because it's not talked about all that much.
Keira Barr: Most are easily addressed. You know, you scrape it, you cut it out, um, and, and you move on. But there is a lot of research on chronic stress, um, on the cancer biology life cycle. in terms of formation, progression, response to treatment. And again, not just limited to skin cancer. We know this to be true for breast cancer, lung cancer, all sorts of cancer.
Keira Barr: So, um, this is why I feel that it's so, um, helpful to bring awareness. To the power of our own body's capacity to support our ability to heal with that mind body skin connection. This is not an either or. I think we talked about this before. I'm not in a camp where I'm just like, just breathe, just meditate, just be with yourself and you will heal.
Keira Barr: No, that is a bunch of, you know,
Julie Michelson:[00:08:00] Yes. You can say it. B. S.
Keira Barr: I know I'm a New Yorker, that I'm biting my tongue right now because
Julie Michelson: from Jersey. Don't
Keira Barr: I'm like, okay, oh, okay,
Julie Michelson: Uh huh. Uh
Keira Barr: there's some, there's some expletives that really just want to come out. but, but I think, you know, we need a comprehensive approach and we live in a society where we've been told to like, just do it, just push through, like, you're fine.
Keira Barr: You know, you survived cancer, you should be grateful. It's like, yes. I am, and there's also this other stuff that I've pushed down, suppressed, repressed, and no one ever made time, space, I never gave myself permission to move through it. And it is now showing up in a myriad of ways, hair loss, eczema, you know, so many different manifestations that we see.
Julie Michelson: So, so important. And, and we were saying before we hit record, record and listeners know, you [00:09:00] know, my view, there is not an either or. any of it. Like we're, we are not, we're very complex beings. So there's not one thing, there's not one root cause. There's not, you know, we need a fully integrative approach for consistent true wellness, right?
Julie Michelson: And, and, and health span as opposed to lifespan. Um, and, and our skin is, you know, whether your perspective is, you know, outside in, inside out, you know, but it, it is, it's, it's a huge organ and it is an organ.
Keira Barr: Yeah, absolutely. And and there again, it's a both end. So if you think about your skin as your ultimate barrier between your internal environment and your external environment, and there's many ways we can interpret this, especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships and boundaries like interpersonal [00:10:00] boundaries.
Keira Barr: I cannot tell you how many women I work with where we work on, um, embodying like doing the work of what it feels like to to set boundaries with your body. Um, because this is where a lot of the skin issues come from. But if you think about your skin as an ultimate boundary, you do need to fortify that boundary.
Keira Barr: boundary from the outside. So you do need emollients. You do need to hydrate. You do need to moisturize your skin. And there are products protected from UV radiation and air pollution. The things that you know, 90 percent of visible signs of aging are from UV exposure. We know air pollution is a close second because those poly aromatic hydrocarbon like particles settle into your skin.
Keira Barr: They've been shown to cause hyperpigmentation. Blue light from our devices can also cause hyperpigmentation. breakdown collagen. So we definitely need some protective barrier measures like sunscreen, um, antioxidants, but really also [00:11:00] fortifying that resilience from the inside out. And that is definitely an integrated approach of nutrition and movement and sleep.
Keira Barr: And attuning to your emotional well being, which usually we're like, we'll get to it later. We'll get to it later.
Julie Michelson: I'm too busy. Mm.
Keira Barr: that's, if you are butting up again, you've done all the things, you're on all the drugs, your diet is, you are exercising. It's that missing piece. That's
Julie Michelson: love that you said that because you, it's, it is so important and I joke, I throw myself under the bus. You know, I always incorporated it into my coaching, um, but in the beginning it was incorporated in. Now we start there because then everything else. Um, and so it is, it's an, and it's the one thing I've seen people, you know, come in and [00:12:00] diet is actually really dialed in and movement is really dialed in and sleep is great, you know, and stress is through the roof, not healing.
Julie Michelson: You can't, you can't heal in that state. Um, and, and we see that reflection in the skin health as well is what you're, is what you're teaching us today.
Keira Barr: Absolutely. And it's interesting because a lot of, um, people that I encounter, they'll name, they're like, I'm doing great. I'm not stressed. And I think, um, listen, on a, on a day to day basis, if you ask me if I'm feeling stressed, like I'm not wearing, you know, I have a whoop, I'm wearing my aura ring, all the things.
Keira Barr: And, um, it'll like my whoop will tell me, oh, you only spent like nine minutes in a high stress zone today. Right. So if you look at the, the scheme of things, I'm not, I'm not that super stressed. I live in a state of hyper vigilance. I have learned my own internal milieu based on [00:13:00] my childhood experiences, based on my lived experiences.
Keira Barr: I live in a stress state.
Julie Michelson: And you're from the East Coast.
Keira Barr: And I'm wired into my DNA. Um, this is, I know my parents live in
Julie Michelson: I understand! Like, it's just a part of the internal makeup.
Keira Barr: live in New York City. And um, now I live on the West coast and I go to visit them and I feel my engines start revving so much faster. I become so much bitchier and like short temper.
Keira Barr: I'm like, get me out of here. I gotta get out. I gotta get out.
Julie Michelson: But I want to highlight, because I hear this all the time as well, there is a difference between becoming aware that all of us are in some kind of a chronic stress state. If we're, if you can hear this, a promise. You are, unless you're really taking active steps to manage that. And that doesn't equal feeling stressed out all the time or being [00:14:00] bitchy or whatever, you know, however you express your stress.
Julie Michelson: Um, they're not the same. We don't have to feel stressed out and out of control. when we're experiencing these chronic stress levels. And, and so I love that you highlighted that because I've had people come in and same thing like, Oh, I'm not stressed. And I'm like, okay, tell me a little bit about what's going on in life, you know?
Julie Michelson: And, and I'm like, wow, well now I'm stressed. So you're just clearly not very in touch with what's going on in your body. So how, how does, because if it's affecting all the things, um, I don't know, share your approach a little bit and does, does this include things like acne, you mentioned even dry skin, um, pigmentation issues, hair falling out, all the things, those really all the things.
Keira Barr: Yeah. So to your point, I think [00:15:00] many of us operate on a level of high stress all the time and it's become our norm and just name fantastic, right? Like celebrate the fact that our bodies know exactly what we need in service of our survival, we have figured out how to navigate and cope doing the best that we can.
Keira Barr: Given our circumstances. Oftentimes, we have a very normal reaction to very abnormal situations and you're here and you've made it through 100 percent of your hard days. Let's celebrate that. Now is an opportunity. I always tell people, you know, what showing up on your skin does not mean that your skin is flawed.
Keira Barr: I think flawless skin in marketing. All this shit is like marketing, right? Flawless skin is a fallacy. All have something, some mark on our skin, and it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. What it does mean [00:16:00] is that you have an invitation and an opportunity from your body. To pay a little more attention, turn your kindness and compassion and your curiosity towards yourself.
Keira Barr: If something is showing up on the surface of your skin, it means that some system, some part of you is under resourced right now. It needs something. That's where the fun can begin, if we look at it as fun, right? It's not, um, and listen, this, I, I'm not trying to be Pollyanna, right? Doing this stuff is hard work, but it is work in service of our happiness, health and happiness, not just surviving. We've been surviving an opportunity, maybe put a little fun, a little bit more joy. Um, so what's showing up on your skin is an invitation to be like, huh, how am I sleeping? How am I moving? How are my relationships? [00:17:00] Do I, am I living in alignment with, you know, my, my purpose? Like, you know, do I need to make some shifts and changes to support myself?
Julie Michelson: And I love that you even included the word joy because it is, it is an essential part of wellbeing and health and it becomes so often overlooked, especially in this, you know, busy, busy, you know, producing and go get it and raising kids, having a family, all the things. I can't tell you how often I'll ask people, what do you, you know, what, what brings you joy?
Julie Michelson: And they glaze over. It breaks my heart. For a moment, and then we work on, okay, creating joy in life again, because it is essential. It's not a bonus. Like, it's part of what we're here to, to experience.
Keira Barr: Yeah. And I think social media has done us a disservice because. Um, we see highlight reels and we see people living their best [00:18:00] life and myself included. I can succumb to the false belief that I should be living my best life
Julie Michelson: All the time.
Keira Barr: all the time, that it should look like I'm an effing rock star with my hair did and done and all that. And my therapist keeps reminding me, Kira,
Julie Michelson: That's not real.
Keira Barr: that's not, that's not the case. And it's the little moments. It's the micro movements. Right. And I forget, um, the author of the book, um, like it's the momentum or something, but like it's the micro moments that stack up to the significant shifts over time.
Julie Michelson: Yes.
Keira Barr: Right.
Keira Barr: And, and it's that, you know, I also think that so many of us who have been on our healing journey, we make it our full time job and we focus on our growth and our healing and our [00:19:00] diet. All the things and then that adds more stress and we forget life is lived. In addition to all the things you're doing to help heal yourself
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: and we can lose the joy and it can become stressful.
Keira Barr: And so even recognizing, Oh, when you asked me how, how I work with people, a lot of it is, you know, they'll say I'm happy or I'm, I'm stressed and I'll always invite, how do you know? Right. How do you know that? So even though we are looking at things that are on the surface, we know from the brain research and from the trauma research, I feel like I'm the only physician who's been hanging out with the psychologist for like the last, I'm like the only one in all the trainings, right?
Keira Barr: Um, because they are light years ahead of us in terms of traumatic stress and how and, and from a body first perspective, because When we are stressed our thinking [00:20:00] brain goes offline. This is what top therapy alone may not be sufficient for a lot of people because we, we reach a limit. We get stuck in thought loops. Why prescriptions alone may not be enough because the brain research shows that our lived experience gets stored in our body as feeling memories as body memories. So in order to heal, we have to go to the body. So When people are saying, I feel stressed or I feel anxious. How do you know? How do you know that?
Keira Barr: And we explore that from an inside out perspective. And I'll name that people who are struggling with, um, you know, skin issues going into the body can be a very scary experience. Very uncomfortable place because the belief is my body has sabotaged me
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Well, it's the same with even non skin related autoimmunity, right? That's, and, and that's why, as I [00:21:00] mentioned, I, we, we start with this work because we need to get back on the same team and, and your body's just trying to give you information.
Keira Barr: literally
Julie Michelson: And I love the fact that, you know, if it's showing up on your skin, that's really clear information.
Keira Barr: and it can give you very Good clues, right? Certain things show up in certain locations. So thyroid disease an autoimmune condition in many ways. There's autoimmune thyroiditis Hi. Hi, hypofunctioning. So low functioning of your thyroid can show up as a loss of hair in the lateral third of your eyebrows.
Keira Barr: Dry skin. There can be depositions of, um, certain, uh, materials underneath the skin. Can give us clues. Um, hair loss, right? There's scarring, hair loss and nons scarring, hair loss, and that the two types of hair loss and when [00:22:00] they happen, um, can give us clues about. Lots of functions that are happening within, um, the body metabolic function, right?
Keira Barr: There are certain conditions that give us clues to blood sugar dysregulation. Um, people who have diabetes, I can't tell you, especially during residency because we were, um, a referral center for like the most complex cases, but it was always blew my mind when people would come with some lumps and bumps on their skin.
Keira Barr: We were the first ones to diagnose them with metastatic cancer. They had no idea they had kind of, I've been not, I've been feeling tired. I've been feeling run down and what have you lost a lot of weight, but no one was connecting the dots and lo and behold, they show up and it's, we biopsy it and there it is.
Julie Michelson: Yeah.
Keira Barr: So it's really important, I think, to pay attention to what you're seeing, [00:23:00] not as something that is wrong or flawed or broken. But to serve your higher good, to be able to bring awareness and attention so that you can take inspired and empowered action for your overall health and well being.
Julie Michelson: I love that. And that's where, and I'm not saying you're going to listen to this and you guys are going to nail it, but that's where curiosity. And compassion. Really, it's a game changer, right? Because we're, we're so, you know, you talked about the, the loops we get stuck in and I, I don't know anybody who, who has a, a stronger, kind, compassionate inner voice.
Julie Michelson: Then I call it the mean girl voice or the mean, you know, there's a million names for it. But Steve, but
Keira Barr: Oh god.
Julie Michelson:[00:24:00] it made it right and just made me giggle, made you giggle. We can hold it lightly. My clients in the beginning think I'm nuts when I'm like, hear it, you know, start to notice and answer and you can be nice or you can be not nice. You could tell it to F off. Great. Whatever serves you or thank it. Oh, that must've served me once.
Julie Michelson: Doesn't anymore. Thanks. I know, but that curiosity, you know, ask yourself, you know, huh, why I keep thinking, and maybe it's because you're a dermatologist and we're talking about skin. I have a fabulous client who is awesome. Also lives in New York. Um, and she, she had, um, eczema. And which wasn't really, you know, why she came to see me.
Julie Michelson: And, and, you know, we did labs and I was like, Oh, and look, you also have Hashimoto's. Um, and, and it was so fun and she was so [00:25:00] resistant to Some of the process, and now she is like, she sings it from the rooftops and tells everybody, you know what they need to, because she lives in New York, what they need to be doing.
Julie Michelson: But it was fun to watch her get to this point where, you know, skin cleared, and then something would pop up and that curiosity would arise of like, huh. What's this from? You know, that, that question, what is my body telling me instead of like the doom and gloom of, and, and for her, you know, it, it pops up on her face.
Julie Michelson: So that it's upsetting for a lot of people. And now she's just like, okay, let me think about, you know, what's going on. What, you know, what have I changed? What do I need more of, you know? Um, and it's really Fun because she can hold it lightly now and know that it's, it's information. It's always information.
Keira Barr: right. [00:26:00] And it's important to know that, that you have some agency and some control. Yeah, I, you know, I deal a lot with, um, because I'd been in the menopause space for, for, for a bit and I realized even though I was prescribing hormone, um, replenishment, it was, there was still the anxiety, the insomnia, the relationship issues.
Keira Barr: And I kept leaning into that mind body, um, practice. And I realized that's where I need to spend my time. This is where women really need support. So a lot of my, um, clients are forties, fifties, sixties and above. Um, and it's so interesting because of the, you know, the visible signs of aging, like, and because they know I'm, I'm dermatology, they're like, Oh, What creams do I use?
Keira Barr: What can I do about these wrinkles? And for so many women, especially maybe they're not partnered in their divorce. I had one client in particular, she came to me because she would spend hours with that negative voice, beating herself up in the mirror. She wasn't [00:27:00] good enough. She could never go out on dates.
Keira Barr: And it was, I mean, she was getting up in the middle of the night to work out. Like it was consuming her. And when we began to work together, helping her recognize how to listen to that voice, to turn towards it, to be able to, that having feelings in general was not a problem.
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: Because she had been taught in her family, culturally, it was not
Julie Michelson: it down. Stuff it down. Yeah.
Keira Barr: so after working together and kind of empowering her with like, oh, this is totally normal.
Julie Michelson: We all have feelings.
Keira Barr: And I now know how to navigate and be with them, make space for them. She's like, I feel like a different person. You know, she even, and I look, the best part was, you know, she was another one, no boundaries. So that embodied experience of boundaries.
Keira Barr: And we practiced that she started [00:28:00] closing her door at work. She was saying no, she was putting on her email notification. Like I'm only available. I was like, you go girl. Then, you know, setting up her dating profile and actually going. It was no longer, her skin was no longer, um, a source of keeping, holding her prisoner,
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: she was leveraging what she was seeing to be like, Oh, I can do something about how this is making me feel, or do something about what I'm seeing from an empowered standpoint.
Keira Barr: And that doesn't mean Botox fillers and procedures to change her appearance. I mean, to, you know, accept what, what was here for her to be in a better relationship with it.
Julie Michelson: Which is amazing. I, you know, I earned every gray hair on my head. I did. Um, and I'm sure as I continue to get more, I'll, I'll say, you know, um, but we do, we all have those stories, you know, [00:29:00] my partner also has an aesthetic clinic and, and I, I'm a horse girl who lives in dry, sunny Colorado, um, and, and I, even I, I, you know, we all, have moments I, where we aren't practicing what we preach or, you know, we, we have these protocols because we know we all need these protocols too.
Julie Michelson: Right. And I've caught myself, you know, several times of like, well, I don't, you know, if I, if I go to a conference, an aesthetic conference with him, I don't look like any lady in the room. I can tell you that right now, you know, and then it's like, Oh, because I, I don't need to, you know, but I still need to become aware of what feelings come up in me.
Julie Michelson: And, and, you know, I am in that place where. I am so impressed and amazed with my body, [00:30:00] with how much younger and better I feel. I'll be 55 in a few weeks. Um, I didn't think I'd be alive to see 50. And so it's like, okay, my life is full. I get to sail and scuba dive and ride horses and, and do work I love.
Julie Michelson: And I, I have an amazing relationship. I have fantastic family, friends, you know, all the things. Yeah. And I have some wrinkles.
Keira Barr: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: I, I don't look like an Instagram reel. I just don't. And I, I'm okay with that. I know most of the time and those moments where I'm not, I get back to the place where I'm okay with that.
Julie Michelson: Um, And so I, I want to, unless it's going to be a really long and maybe we, maybe we do a second, a second segment, um, because I, I do want to know specifically, um, You know, the, the hormones, we talk about hormones a lot on [00:31:00] the podcast. They have such a huge role in all the things autoimmunity. Um, but you, you mentioned the, the post menopausal or maybe perimenopausal and post menopausal skin, all, all the things, um, You have like a tip specific for this group of the population.
Julie Michelson: Like, is there something different we should be doing? So I had a hysterectomy four years ago and my ovaries out. So I went from like, Fully cycling to postmenopausal in a day. Um, anything I'm missing? If I'm, if I'm just kind of whole health, you know, but, but is there anything different that we need to be doing?
Keira Barr: Well, you know, the influence that estrogen has on the hair growth cycle on production of high uranic acid. This is why, [00:32:00] um, as our hormones diminish or in your case, kind of just rapidly poof. I mean, I had
Julie Michelson: They're replaced.
Keira Barr: Okay. Yeah, I had a hysterectomy when I was 42. That was where I discovered autoimmunity. Like, I had no idea.
Keira Barr: Endometriosis, adenomyosis, and fibroids. Like, trifecta had no idea.
Julie Michelson: Gee, a little estrogen dominant perhaps?
Keira Barr: Yes, totally didn't, didn't know and this is what was so frustrating because I kept going to all my physicians and not once they're like, Hmm, I wonder, you know, like, you might need some, some, some progesterone support and help your body clear out the estrogen that you are producing.
Keira Barr: No, there's none of that. Um, but, but estrogen has that influence on, on the hair growth cycle, which is why a lot of women will notice, um, increased shedding or winding apart because the androgen dominance, [00:33:00] um, relative dominance on the scalp, there's miniaturization of the hair follicles. So the hair follicle, the hair becomes thinner, finer, and almost will, um, uh, appear like male pattern hair loss.
Keira Barr: On the face, the androgen, um, relative androgen dominance has an opposite effect. It stimulates the facial hair more
Julie Michelson: you fix that for us?
Keira Barr: right? So it's like, okay, I'm going bald, I have a beard, what the F? You know, you're like, why is this happening? Um, so, so I think it's understanding. Um, number one, nothing is going wrong like
Julie Michelson: Right? Right.
Keira Barr: you know, and and depending on what your internal terrain looks like, you may experience more or less of some of these symptoms. Your skin pH changes. Typically, our skin is slightly acidic. It becomes a little more basic. So some of the products that you've been using, you're like, I've been using this for years and now my skin is irritated. [00:34:00] Not your imagination. Also, companies may be changing their formulation. So using gender. and especially with the l from the estrogen influe your face, it's your extr your intimate bits.
Keira Barr: This more uncomfortable becaus
Julie Michelson: Spending out.
Keira Barr: lack of action. So there's also we lose collagen, um, not just on her face, but in all areas. And so this is also why urinary tract infections become, uh, more prevalent because there's, you know, things are shifting and supportive tissue is, you know, all the things. So, um, Knowing that you're going to want to use gentle cleansers, use products that are more hydrating.
Keira Barr: Um, you know, uh, you want to use humect products that have humectant properties that draw in the moisture. This is why some mini products have hyaluronic acid in them to draw the moisture in and then an [00:35:00] emollient that helps seal that moisture in. So this is where you might find you're using creams and ointments more often than lotion because lotions have higher water content.
Keira Barr: You just may need something a little heavier. a little bit more moisturizing, um, things that are more gentle and all these menopause specific products. Um, some of them may have some anti inflammatory, uh, components, more, uh, hydration, but, um, you don't need to spend a ton of money either. A lot of products that are at Target or CVS, um, you know, they can be very helpful too.
Keira Barr: It's just knowing that your skin has more hydration needs. As your estrogen level is going down. That's kind of a big one.
Julie Michelson: That's a huge one. And that is not a personal problem. It's just a fact. Um, I will add the little caveat if you're going to Target or CVS or somewhere. Check with one of your clean product databases and just make [00:36:00] sure you're not also putting toxins on. Because some of those products that feel good and create a nice barrier also are loaded with toxins.
Julie Michelson: So,
Keira Barr: yes.
Julie Michelson: And, and, but there are, there are always some that surprise me. Um, you know, it could be a product line where, you know, 80 percent of it has extra junk in it. And then they've got a, you know, some of their products not labeled differently, just specific products that are as clean as can be. And they're not expensive.
Julie Michelson: So homework, do some homework.
Keira Barr: I wholeheartedly agree wholeheartedly agree. And just circling back to your point of not looking like the others. I just came back from the American Academy of Dermatology meeting and presenting and, and yeah, talk about like, I, I totally don't look like, uh,
Julie Michelson: a, it's a social media reel in person, is what that is.
Keira Barr: it definitely was, but I will say, listen, I am not anti Botox or filler or any procedure, but we have [00:37:00] been sold a big old fat lie. Society says, If you look good, you feel good. That is not what I have discovered.
Julie Michelson: the opposite.
Keira Barr: It's the opposite. When you feel good, you will look good. And from a place of feeling good, going to get the Botox, the filler, the procedure. Because that stuff is expensive. It requires maintenance, and I want everyone to get the best return on their investment as possible, because I cannot tell you how many clients I have that they look drop dead effing gorgeous.
Keira Barr: They've had all the things done. But when I ask, you know, how are you doing? Or how does this, you know, how are you feeling?
Julie Michelson: well, oh,
Keira Barr: what I'm thinking of one woman in particular. She's always in her mind. She's always asking the question. Do you love me now? Do you love me now? I've done this.
Keira Barr: Do you love me now? I've done this. Do you love me now?
Julie Michelson: that's
Keira Barr: It's so heartbreaking [00:38:00] because The question you should be asking right is like do I love me now? I need so that I can have a felt sense of my own care my own concern And you still may want to have the procedures and all but from that place Um
Julie Michelson: Yeah. From this place of self love, but also wellness. Um, we just had that have somebody was coming in for a fabulous. I think it's a, it's a great tool. Um, an RF microneedling procedure, because again, we want to be stimulating collagen. We need a little extra help and, and the girls, she wasn't a patient at the, on the functional medicine side.
Julie Michelson: And, and, The girls, I think, did like two rounds and, and they're good. And, and they were like, she looks like she has smokers skin. Come to find out. Yup. Active, you know, pack a day [00:39:00] smoke or she's not going to get the results. She's wasting her money. Um, and, and so, you know, it's like, okay, no, we need to be asking in the consults, some more of these lifestyle questions.
Julie Michelson: Because to, to drop money on a series of, of, again, I think it's a great, it's a great tool. Um, but if you're not healthy, you're not going to get the results you're looking for.
Keira Barr: And some people are okay with that, right? It's kind of knowing where they're at and what their perspective is, but
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Oh, and I'm not saying like, you don't deserve to feel like you look good. If you smile, I'm just saying like, no, that, that everything we're doing has an impact and yeah. And there's no magic wand. No.
Keira Barr: absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah, the opposite. It's so it amazes me that people did not get that memo that smoking is bad for your overall health, but especially the oxidative stress that it creates. Um, for skin. It is, [00:40:00] you know,
Julie Michelson: That's a real uphill battle for sure.
Keira Barr: UV exposure, right? The classic photos of, like, smoking a cigarette, getting the magda from, you know, something about Mary, like, it's just, there are certain things that will just age you a lot faster.
Julie Michelson: right. I love it. We could talk for hours, but I promised I was going to get you out of here on time. Um, I so love, love, love what you're doing, because it's, you are, and I love that you were just, you know, at the conference you were presenting at, because this is how we change medicine and make it even better, right?
Julie Michelson: And, and, um, you're pioneering Kind of a new direction for dermatology. And I, I celebrate you.
Keira Barr: Thank you. It is. It is lonely. Yeah, I present
Julie Michelson: It's lonely. I'm sure it's lonely.
Keira Barr: I presented at the, the [00:41:00] association meeting about shame and skin disease because. So many, that is like the primary symptom that so many of the women I work with experience is shame. Um, and nothing has gone wrong again. That is,
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: you just need to learn how to, and, and you can heal that.
Keira Barr: Um, but at the Academy of dermatology, I present a session, mind, body medicine, what's the evidence. And I tell you, I am alone. It is lonely, but I will not give up because,
Julie Michelson: singing.
Keira Barr: um, yeah, it is, it is so important. We need. We need a comprehensive, holistic approach, right? We need the, the physical, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual, we need all of it to feel at home, at ease and comfort in the skin of ours.
Keira Barr: It's the only home we've got that, you know, so we want to, we want to, we want to love it. We want to feel good in it. We, you know, we might
Julie Michelson: And allow it to love us back. Like it really, it is, it becomes a win win. [00:42:00] So. What is one step that listeners can take before we let you go? And it could be anything under the sun to start to improve their health.
Keira Barr: Yeah, I think the thing is, I've said it a few times is just to, um, from a place of curiosity and compassion. When you look in the mirror, instead of criticizing. Perhaps, and having contempt, just look at what you're seeing as an opportunity and an invitation of, um, to turn your kind awareness. Um, towards what you might need in this moment, right?
Keira Barr: What's showing up is, is just a sign that maybe you're under resourced in some area. Maybe you all haven't been sleeping, maybe you've been scrolling on. So, I mean, listen, I'm guilty of staying up too late watching Hulu or whatever. Um, but I would say of see if you can just approach what you might see on your skin from a place of curiosity and compassion about what you might need in this moment.[00:43:00]
Julie Michelson: Love it. I love it. That is, and that alone, that's a huge step. Um, and, but it, it's something that all of us can do. one or two others can do more of. No matter what. And if it's. You know, if you've never even, um, Thought about it and mirror work is, is amazing, but, but really shifting, holding that curiosity.
Julie Michelson: Curiosity and compassion. I mean, just think if we all showed up in the world. And it always starts within us. Right. Which is, is what you're focused on. Um, but imagine the change. I know we're talking about dermatology and health, but really the change in the world that would be if everybody learned to show up with curiosity and compassion instead of criticism.
Julie Michelson: Yeah.
Keira Barr: It, it, you know, there is a huge ripple effect.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Uh, that was beautiful. So before we wrap up for people that are listening on the [00:44:00] go and aren't going to check the show notes, where's the best place to find you?
Keira Barr: So on instagram, um, dr Kira bar, I'm certain I'm not always the most active, but I'm starting to put more information out there because it's very clear there's education needed. My website drkeirabarr.com. And then I have a quiz. Actually, if you're curious about, does your skin care routine need an upgrade?
Keira Barr: This will give you a down and dirty quick Way to figure out what might need a little bit more of your attention and it's yourskincarequiz.com
Julie Michelson: Love it. Awesome. Uh, thank you so, so much. You, you really have shared a may I. My curiosity is peaked, which is what it's all about, right? That's what will drive us to take the next step and dig in and learn more. Um, so I'm sure listeners got a ton of value out of this as well.
Keira Barr: So, thank you so much
Julie Michelson: For everyone listening, remember you can get the transcripts [00:45:00] and show notes by visiting inspiredliving. show. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week.
Julie Michelson: Dr. Kira, welcome to the podcast.
Keira Barr: Thank you. I'm excited for our conversation.
Julie Michelson: I am as well. I would just, we're starting the chat and I had to stop myself [00:01:00] cause I get excited and carried away. I would love for you to share your journey with listeners because you're what you're, what you're doing is so unique. Um, I would love to know how you came to be integrating all of these wonderful pieces of the wellness together along with dermatology.
Julie Michelson: Oh,
Keira Barr: many people, um, your journey evolves because, you know, stuff hits the fan and you're like, okay, what I was doing was totally not working. Um, so gosh, I've been in, uh, dermatology for over 20 years and, you know, was on the academic track, uh, focused with skin cancer and melanoma.
Keira Barr: Um, dermatopathology, right? So if you had a biopsy, I was looking at, uh, what was happening underneath the microscope and thought I was doing all the right things. I was running ultra marathons. I was juggling the kids, the career thought I was eating healthy and all the things [00:02:00] and my own skin. Started changing, um, growing moles, changing moles.
Keira Barr: They were becoming more atypical. I was having chronic pain, hormonal issues, gut problems. Um, and ultimately had to diagnose myself with early. melanoma, which as a melanoma specialist is a very humbling and horrifying experience. And so that really was my invitation and wake up call that, um, how I was living was not necessarily working for me and really brought my attention to to that mind skin connection to, um, the significant impact that chronic, uh, stress, later on, you know, traumatic stress brings to our lives.
Keira Barr: And it led me down this path of diving deep into integrative medicine, more of functional approach and mind body medicine. And we've known for a very, very long time, the [00:03:00] skin and the brain are embryologically linked. They're communicating with each other all the time, but it's a part of a skincare routine that gets overlooked.
Keira Barr: And so I really, um, have decided for myself and for so many of the women that I work with, that's been the missing piece. And so the focus of the work I do now is using a mind body approach to support the emotional and mental well being of individuals struggling with chronic skin conditions, because we know that stress can trigger a skin issue and or worsen an existing skin issue.
Keira Barr: So our skin affects our mood, our mood affects our skin, and no one's really supporting people in that way. So that is how I am here today.
Julie Michelson: it. I love it. And I love, I I'm always grateful. You know, it's never fun when we're in it. Right. And then it's the, the beauty and the journey is now you're, you have this [00:04:00] unique approach to serve others. And. I love that you said, you know, I thought I was eating healthy. You know, I thought I was doing the right things.
Julie Michelson: Um, I have a run, we have a running joke at the clinic because almost everybody I meet says, you know, I eat healthy and I'm like, okay, what does that mean to you, you know, tell me more. Um, and then we give ourselves a grace of we're, we all do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time. Right.
Julie Michelson: And that's why we're having this conversation to give. People probably some new knowledge, the things that they haven't thought about. So you're, you know, the audience is very familiar with autoimmune conversations and, and, you know, they, we talk about the, the, what's going on in your gut is reflected on your skin.
Julie Michelson: You know, to me, it's like, Oh, of course, stress, gut, gut, skin, all the things. Um, but not even. Just [00:05:00] autoimmune. So we're not just talking about, you know, psoriatic arthritis or things like that. This is just in general using that mind body approach to improve skin health, skin condition, all the things.
Keira Barr: Yeah, so it's really interesting. So if you think about, you know, I think with gut health, there's been such a focus on gut health, um, as kind of the center of things because people consider it the second brain. Yeah. If you think about it, the, the, the brain and the skin are derived from the same embryologic layer of tissue.
Keira Barr: So. You've got your primary brain. Maybe your gut is your second brain. Your skin is actually like your outer brain
Julie Michelson: I like
Keira Barr: and they're all communicating with each other. And when it comes to chronic stress, traumatic stress, our body goes into survival mode. Uh, whether it's flight, flee, you know, shut down and freeze, uh, so, so many different strategies that we've developed [00:06:00] on, you know, on behalf of our survival.
Keira Barr: So nothing has gone wrong. Yeah. But the gut motility and gut function shuts down. when we are in that survival mode. So for me, looking at nervous system regulation, looking at how to soothe the nervous system, soothes the skin. And it also would help, you know, quiet the internal engine that is driving all of your other systems, including your gut function to decline or to be negatively impacted.
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Keira Barr: So, so yes, it's, it's, it's all connected and it isn't just autoimmune. You know, when we think about skin cancer, at least in the United States and Canada, they're the most prevalent cancers out of all the, there are more, skin cancers than all other cancers [00:07:00] combined on an annual basis. Most people don't know this because it's not talked about all that much.
Keira Barr: Most are easily addressed. You know, you scrape it, you cut it out, um, and, and you move on. But there is a lot of research on chronic stress, um, on the cancer biology life cycle. in terms of formation, progression, response to treatment. And again, not just limited to skin cancer. We know this to be true for breast cancer, lung cancer, all sorts of cancer.
Keira Barr: So, um, this is why I feel that it's so, um, helpful to bring awareness. To the power of our own body's capacity to support our ability to heal with that mind body skin connection. This is not an either or. I think we talked about this before. I'm not in a camp where I'm just like, just breathe, just meditate, just be with yourself and you will heal.
Keira Barr: No, that is a bunch of, you know,
Julie Michelson:[00:08:00] Yes. You can say it. B. S.
Keira Barr: I know I'm a New Yorker, that I'm biting my tongue right now because
Julie Michelson: from Jersey. Don't
Keira Barr: I'm like, okay, oh, okay,
Julie Michelson: Uh huh. Uh
Keira Barr: there's some, there's some expletives that really just want to come out. but, but I think, you know, we need a comprehensive approach and we live in a society where we've been told to like, just do it, just push through, like, you're fine.
Keira Barr: You know, you survived cancer, you should be grateful. It's like, yes. I am, and there's also this other stuff that I've pushed down, suppressed, repressed, and no one ever made time, space, I never gave myself permission to move through it. And it is now showing up in a myriad of ways, hair loss, eczema, you know, so many different manifestations that we see.
Julie Michelson: So, so important. And, and we were saying before we hit record, record and listeners know, you [00:09:00] know, my view, there is not an either or. any of it. Like we're, we are not, we're very complex beings. So there's not one thing, there's not one root cause. There's not, you know, we need a fully integrative approach for consistent true wellness, right?
Julie Michelson: And, and, and health span as opposed to lifespan. Um, and, and our skin is, you know, whether your perspective is, you know, outside in, inside out, you know, but it, it is, it's, it's a huge organ and it is an organ.
Keira Barr: Yeah, absolutely. And and there again, it's a both end. So if you think about your skin as your ultimate barrier between your internal environment and your external environment, and there's many ways we can interpret this, especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships and boundaries like interpersonal [00:10:00] boundaries.
Keira Barr: I cannot tell you how many women I work with where we work on, um, embodying like doing the work of what it feels like to to set boundaries with your body. Um, because this is where a lot of the skin issues come from. But if you think about your skin as an ultimate boundary, you do need to fortify that boundary.
Keira Barr: boundary from the outside. So you do need emollients. You do need to hydrate. You do need to moisturize your skin. And there are products protected from UV radiation and air pollution. The things that you know, 90 percent of visible signs of aging are from UV exposure. We know air pollution is a close second because those poly aromatic hydrocarbon like particles settle into your skin.
Keira Barr: They've been shown to cause hyperpigmentation. Blue light from our devices can also cause hyperpigmentation. breakdown collagen. So we definitely need some protective barrier measures like sunscreen, um, antioxidants, but really also [00:11:00] fortifying that resilience from the inside out. And that is definitely an integrated approach of nutrition and movement and sleep.
Keira Barr: And attuning to your emotional well being, which usually we're like, we'll get to it later. We'll get to it later.
Julie Michelson: I'm too busy. Mm.
Keira Barr: that's, if you are butting up again, you've done all the things, you're on all the drugs, your diet is, you are exercising. It's that missing piece. That's
Julie Michelson: love that you said that because you, it's, it is so important and I joke, I throw myself under the bus. You know, I always incorporated it into my coaching, um, but in the beginning it was incorporated in. Now we start there because then everything else. Um, and so it is, it's an, and it's the one thing I've seen people, you know, come in and [00:12:00] diet is actually really dialed in and movement is really dialed in and sleep is great, you know, and stress is through the roof, not healing.
Julie Michelson: You can't, you can't heal in that state. Um, and, and we see that reflection in the skin health as well is what you're, is what you're teaching us today.
Keira Barr: Absolutely. And it's interesting because a lot of, um, people that I encounter, they'll name, they're like, I'm doing great. I'm not stressed. And I think, um, listen, on a, on a day to day basis, if you ask me if I'm feeling stressed, like I'm not wearing, you know, I have a whoop, I'm wearing my aura ring, all the things.
Keira Barr: And, um, it'll like my whoop will tell me, oh, you only spent like nine minutes in a high stress zone today. Right. So if you look at the, the scheme of things, I'm not, I'm not that super stressed. I live in a state of hyper vigilance. I have learned my own internal milieu based on [00:13:00] my childhood experiences, based on my lived experiences.
Keira Barr: I live in a stress state.
Julie Michelson: And you're from the East Coast.
Keira Barr: And I'm wired into my DNA. Um, this is, I know my parents live in
Julie Michelson: I understand! Like, it's just a part of the internal makeup.
Keira Barr: live in New York City. And um, now I live on the West coast and I go to visit them and I feel my engines start revving so much faster. I become so much bitchier and like short temper.
Keira Barr: I'm like, get me out of here. I gotta get out. I gotta get out.
Julie Michelson: But I want to highlight, because I hear this all the time as well, there is a difference between becoming aware that all of us are in some kind of a chronic stress state. If we're, if you can hear this, a promise. You are, unless you're really taking active steps to manage that. And that doesn't equal feeling stressed out all the time or being [00:14:00] bitchy or whatever, you know, however you express your stress.
Julie Michelson: Um, they're not the same. We don't have to feel stressed out and out of control. when we're experiencing these chronic stress levels. And, and so I love that you highlighted that because I've had people come in and same thing like, Oh, I'm not stressed. And I'm like, okay, tell me a little bit about what's going on in life, you know?
Julie Michelson: And, and I'm like, wow, well now I'm stressed. So you're just clearly not very in touch with what's going on in your body. So how, how does, because if it's affecting all the things, um, I don't know, share your approach a little bit and does, does this include things like acne, you mentioned even dry skin, um, pigmentation issues, hair falling out, all the things, those really all the things.
Keira Barr: Yeah. So to your point, I think [00:15:00] many of us operate on a level of high stress all the time and it's become our norm and just name fantastic, right? Like celebrate the fact that our bodies know exactly what we need in service of our survival, we have figured out how to navigate and cope doing the best that we can.
Keira Barr: Given our circumstances. Oftentimes, we have a very normal reaction to very abnormal situations and you're here and you've made it through 100 percent of your hard days. Let's celebrate that. Now is an opportunity. I always tell people, you know, what showing up on your skin does not mean that your skin is flawed.
Keira Barr: I think flawless skin in marketing. All this shit is like marketing, right? Flawless skin is a fallacy. All have something, some mark on our skin, and it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. What it does mean [00:16:00] is that you have an invitation and an opportunity from your body. To pay a little more attention, turn your kindness and compassion and your curiosity towards yourself.
Keira Barr: If something is showing up on the surface of your skin, it means that some system, some part of you is under resourced right now. It needs something. That's where the fun can begin, if we look at it as fun, right? It's not, um, and listen, this, I, I'm not trying to be Pollyanna, right? Doing this stuff is hard work, but it is work in service of our happiness, health and happiness, not just surviving. We've been surviving an opportunity, maybe put a little fun, a little bit more joy. Um, so what's showing up on your skin is an invitation to be like, huh, how am I sleeping? How am I moving? How are my relationships? [00:17:00] Do I, am I living in alignment with, you know, my, my purpose? Like, you know, do I need to make some shifts and changes to support myself?
Julie Michelson: And I love that you even included the word joy because it is, it is an essential part of wellbeing and health and it becomes so often overlooked, especially in this, you know, busy, busy, you know, producing and go get it and raising kids, having a family, all the things. I can't tell you how often I'll ask people, what do you, you know, what, what brings you joy?
Julie Michelson: And they glaze over. It breaks my heart. For a moment, and then we work on, okay, creating joy in life again, because it is essential. It's not a bonus. Like, it's part of what we're here to, to experience.
Keira Barr: Yeah. And I think social media has done us a disservice because. Um, we see highlight reels and we see people living their best [00:18:00] life and myself included. I can succumb to the false belief that I should be living my best life
Julie Michelson: All the time.
Keira Barr: all the time, that it should look like I'm an effing rock star with my hair did and done and all that. And my therapist keeps reminding me, Kira,
Julie Michelson: That's not real.
Keira Barr: that's not, that's not the case. And it's the little moments. It's the micro movements. Right. And I forget, um, the author of the book, um, like it's the momentum or something, but like it's the micro moments that stack up to the significant shifts over time.
Julie Michelson: Yes.
Keira Barr: Right.
Keira Barr: And, and it's that, you know, I also think that so many of us who have been on our healing journey, we make it our full time job and we focus on our growth and our healing and our [00:19:00] diet. All the things and then that adds more stress and we forget life is lived. In addition to all the things you're doing to help heal yourself
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: and we can lose the joy and it can become stressful.
Keira Barr: And so even recognizing, Oh, when you asked me how, how I work with people, a lot of it is, you know, they'll say I'm happy or I'm, I'm stressed and I'll always invite, how do you know? Right. How do you know that? So even though we are looking at things that are on the surface, we know from the brain research and from the trauma research, I feel like I'm the only physician who's been hanging out with the psychologist for like the last, I'm like the only one in all the trainings, right?
Keira Barr: Um, because they are light years ahead of us in terms of traumatic stress and how and, and from a body first perspective, because When we are stressed our thinking [00:20:00] brain goes offline. This is what top therapy alone may not be sufficient for a lot of people because we, we reach a limit. We get stuck in thought loops. Why prescriptions alone may not be enough because the brain research shows that our lived experience gets stored in our body as feeling memories as body memories. So in order to heal, we have to go to the body. So When people are saying, I feel stressed or I feel anxious. How do you know? How do you know that?
Keira Barr: And we explore that from an inside out perspective. And I'll name that people who are struggling with, um, you know, skin issues going into the body can be a very scary experience. Very uncomfortable place because the belief is my body has sabotaged me
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Well, it's the same with even non skin related autoimmunity, right? That's, and, and that's why, as I [00:21:00] mentioned, I, we, we start with this work because we need to get back on the same team and, and your body's just trying to give you information.
Keira Barr: literally
Julie Michelson: And I love the fact that, you know, if it's showing up on your skin, that's really clear information.
Keira Barr: and it can give you very Good clues, right? Certain things show up in certain locations. So thyroid disease an autoimmune condition in many ways. There's autoimmune thyroiditis Hi. Hi, hypofunctioning. So low functioning of your thyroid can show up as a loss of hair in the lateral third of your eyebrows.
Keira Barr: Dry skin. There can be depositions of, um, certain, uh, materials underneath the skin. Can give us clues. Um, hair loss, right? There's scarring, hair loss and nons scarring, hair loss, and that the two types of hair loss and when [00:22:00] they happen, um, can give us clues about. Lots of functions that are happening within, um, the body metabolic function, right?
Keira Barr: There are certain conditions that give us clues to blood sugar dysregulation. Um, people who have diabetes, I can't tell you, especially during residency because we were, um, a referral center for like the most complex cases, but it was always blew my mind when people would come with some lumps and bumps on their skin.
Keira Barr: We were the first ones to diagnose them with metastatic cancer. They had no idea they had kind of, I've been not, I've been feeling tired. I've been feeling run down and what have you lost a lot of weight, but no one was connecting the dots and lo and behold, they show up and it's, we biopsy it and there it is.
Julie Michelson: Yeah.
Keira Barr: So it's really important, I think, to pay attention to what you're seeing, [00:23:00] not as something that is wrong or flawed or broken. But to serve your higher good, to be able to bring awareness and attention so that you can take inspired and empowered action for your overall health and well being.
Julie Michelson: I love that. And that's where, and I'm not saying you're going to listen to this and you guys are going to nail it, but that's where curiosity. And compassion. Really, it's a game changer, right? Because we're, we're so, you know, you talked about the, the loops we get stuck in and I, I don't know anybody who, who has a, a stronger, kind, compassionate inner voice.
Julie Michelson: Then I call it the mean girl voice or the mean, you know, there's a million names for it. But Steve, but
Keira Barr: Oh god.
Julie Michelson:[00:24:00] it made it right and just made me giggle, made you giggle. We can hold it lightly. My clients in the beginning think I'm nuts when I'm like, hear it, you know, start to notice and answer and you can be nice or you can be not nice. You could tell it to F off. Great. Whatever serves you or thank it. Oh, that must've served me once.
Julie Michelson: Doesn't anymore. Thanks. I know, but that curiosity, you know, ask yourself, you know, huh, why I keep thinking, and maybe it's because you're a dermatologist and we're talking about skin. I have a fabulous client who is awesome. Also lives in New York. Um, and she, she had, um, eczema. And which wasn't really, you know, why she came to see me.
Julie Michelson: And, and, you know, we did labs and I was like, Oh, and look, you also have Hashimoto's. Um, and, and it was so fun and she was so [00:25:00] resistant to Some of the process, and now she is like, she sings it from the rooftops and tells everybody, you know what they need to, because she lives in New York, what they need to be doing.
Julie Michelson: But it was fun to watch her get to this point where, you know, skin cleared, and then something would pop up and that curiosity would arise of like, huh. What's this from? You know, that, that question, what is my body telling me instead of like the doom and gloom of, and, and for her, you know, it, it pops up on her face.
Julie Michelson: So that it's upsetting for a lot of people. And now she's just like, okay, let me think about, you know, what's going on. What, you know, what have I changed? What do I need more of, you know? Um, and it's really Fun because she can hold it lightly now and know that it's, it's information. It's always information.
Keira Barr: right. [00:26:00] And it's important to know that, that you have some agency and some control. Yeah, I, you know, I deal a lot with, um, because I'd been in the menopause space for, for, for a bit and I realized even though I was prescribing hormone, um, replenishment, it was, there was still the anxiety, the insomnia, the relationship issues.
Keira Barr: And I kept leaning into that mind body, um, practice. And I realized that's where I need to spend my time. This is where women really need support. So a lot of my, um, clients are forties, fifties, sixties and above. Um, and it's so interesting because of the, you know, the visible signs of aging, like, and because they know I'm, I'm dermatology, they're like, Oh, What creams do I use?
Keira Barr: What can I do about these wrinkles? And for so many women, especially maybe they're not partnered in their divorce. I had one client in particular, she came to me because she would spend hours with that negative voice, beating herself up in the mirror. She wasn't [00:27:00] good enough. She could never go out on dates.
Keira Barr: And it was, I mean, she was getting up in the middle of the night to work out. Like it was consuming her. And when we began to work together, helping her recognize how to listen to that voice, to turn towards it, to be able to, that having feelings in general was not a problem.
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: Because she had been taught in her family, culturally, it was not
Julie Michelson: it down. Stuff it down. Yeah.
Keira Barr: so after working together and kind of empowering her with like, oh, this is totally normal.
Julie Michelson: We all have feelings.
Keira Barr: And I now know how to navigate and be with them, make space for them. She's like, I feel like a different person. You know, she even, and I look, the best part was, you know, she was another one, no boundaries. So that embodied experience of boundaries.
Keira Barr: And we practiced that she started [00:28:00] closing her door at work. She was saying no, she was putting on her email notification. Like I'm only available. I was like, you go girl. Then, you know, setting up her dating profile and actually going. It was no longer, her skin was no longer, um, a source of keeping, holding her prisoner,
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: she was leveraging what she was seeing to be like, Oh, I can do something about how this is making me feel, or do something about what I'm seeing from an empowered standpoint.
Keira Barr: And that doesn't mean Botox fillers and procedures to change her appearance. I mean, to, you know, accept what, what was here for her to be in a better relationship with it.
Julie Michelson: Which is amazing. I, you know, I earned every gray hair on my head. I did. Um, and I'm sure as I continue to get more, I'll, I'll say, you know, um, but we do, we all have those stories, you know, [00:29:00] my partner also has an aesthetic clinic and, and I, I'm a horse girl who lives in dry, sunny Colorado, um, and, and I, even I, I, you know, we all, have moments I, where we aren't practicing what we preach or, you know, we, we have these protocols because we know we all need these protocols too.
Julie Michelson: Right. And I've caught myself, you know, several times of like, well, I don't, you know, if I, if I go to a conference, an aesthetic conference with him, I don't look like any lady in the room. I can tell you that right now, you know, and then it's like, Oh, because I, I don't need to, you know, but I still need to become aware of what feelings come up in me.
Julie Michelson: And, and, you know, I am in that place where. I am so impressed and amazed with my body, [00:30:00] with how much younger and better I feel. I'll be 55 in a few weeks. Um, I didn't think I'd be alive to see 50. And so it's like, okay, my life is full. I get to sail and scuba dive and ride horses and, and do work I love.
Julie Michelson: And I, I have an amazing relationship. I have fantastic family, friends, you know, all the things. Yeah. And I have some wrinkles.
Keira Barr: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: I, I don't look like an Instagram reel. I just don't. And I, I'm okay with that. I know most of the time and those moments where I'm not, I get back to the place where I'm okay with that.
Julie Michelson: Um, And so I, I want to, unless it's going to be a really long and maybe we, maybe we do a second, a second segment, um, because I, I do want to know specifically, um, You know, the, the hormones, we talk about hormones a lot on [00:31:00] the podcast. They have such a huge role in all the things autoimmunity. Um, but you, you mentioned the, the post menopausal or maybe perimenopausal and post menopausal skin, all, all the things, um, You have like a tip specific for this group of the population.
Julie Michelson: Like, is there something different we should be doing? So I had a hysterectomy four years ago and my ovaries out. So I went from like, Fully cycling to postmenopausal in a day. Um, anything I'm missing? If I'm, if I'm just kind of whole health, you know, but, but is there anything different that we need to be doing?
Keira Barr: Well, you know, the influence that estrogen has on the hair growth cycle on production of high uranic acid. This is why, [00:32:00] um, as our hormones diminish or in your case, kind of just rapidly poof. I mean, I had
Julie Michelson: They're replaced.
Keira Barr: Okay. Yeah, I had a hysterectomy when I was 42. That was where I discovered autoimmunity. Like, I had no idea.
Keira Barr: Endometriosis, adenomyosis, and fibroids. Like, trifecta had no idea.
Julie Michelson: Gee, a little estrogen dominant perhaps?
Keira Barr: Yes, totally didn't, didn't know and this is what was so frustrating because I kept going to all my physicians and not once they're like, Hmm, I wonder, you know, like, you might need some, some, some progesterone support and help your body clear out the estrogen that you are producing.
Keira Barr: No, there's none of that. Um, but, but estrogen has that influence on, on the hair growth cycle, which is why a lot of women will notice, um, increased shedding or winding apart because the androgen dominance, [00:33:00] um, relative dominance on the scalp, there's miniaturization of the hair follicles. So the hair follicle, the hair becomes thinner, finer, and almost will, um, uh, appear like male pattern hair loss.
Keira Barr: On the face, the androgen, um, relative androgen dominance has an opposite effect. It stimulates the facial hair more
Julie Michelson: you fix that for us?
Keira Barr: right? So it's like, okay, I'm going bald, I have a beard, what the F? You know, you're like, why is this happening? Um, so, so I think it's understanding. Um, number one, nothing is going wrong like
Julie Michelson: Right? Right.
Keira Barr: you know, and and depending on what your internal terrain looks like, you may experience more or less of some of these symptoms. Your skin pH changes. Typically, our skin is slightly acidic. It becomes a little more basic. So some of the products that you've been using, you're like, I've been using this for years and now my skin is irritated. [00:34:00] Not your imagination. Also, companies may be changing their formulation. So using gender. and especially with the l from the estrogen influe your face, it's your extr your intimate bits.
Keira Barr: This more uncomfortable becaus
Julie Michelson: Spending out.
Keira Barr: lack of action. So there's also we lose collagen, um, not just on her face, but in all areas. And so this is also why urinary tract infections become, uh, more prevalent because there's, you know, things are shifting and supportive tissue is, you know, all the things. So, um, Knowing that you're going to want to use gentle cleansers, use products that are more hydrating.
Keira Barr: Um, you know, uh, you want to use humect products that have humectant properties that draw in the moisture. This is why some mini products have hyaluronic acid in them to draw the moisture in and then an [00:35:00] emollient that helps seal that moisture in. So this is where you might find you're using creams and ointments more often than lotion because lotions have higher water content.
Keira Barr: You just may need something a little heavier. a little bit more moisturizing, um, things that are more gentle and all these menopause specific products. Um, some of them may have some anti inflammatory, uh, components, more, uh, hydration, but, um, you don't need to spend a ton of money either. A lot of products that are at Target or CVS, um, you know, they can be very helpful too.
Keira Barr: It's just knowing that your skin has more hydration needs. As your estrogen level is going down. That's kind of a big one.
Julie Michelson: That's a huge one. And that is not a personal problem. It's just a fact. Um, I will add the little caveat if you're going to Target or CVS or somewhere. Check with one of your clean product databases and just make [00:36:00] sure you're not also putting toxins on. Because some of those products that feel good and create a nice barrier also are loaded with toxins.
Julie Michelson: So,
Keira Barr: yes.
Julie Michelson: And, and, but there are, there are always some that surprise me. Um, you know, it could be a product line where, you know, 80 percent of it has extra junk in it. And then they've got a, you know, some of their products not labeled differently, just specific products that are as clean as can be. And they're not expensive.
Julie Michelson: So homework, do some homework.
Keira Barr: I wholeheartedly agree wholeheartedly agree. And just circling back to your point of not looking like the others. I just came back from the American Academy of Dermatology meeting and presenting and, and yeah, talk about like, I, I totally don't look like, uh,
Julie Michelson: a, it's a social media reel in person, is what that is.
Keira Barr: it definitely was, but I will say, listen, I am not anti Botox or filler or any procedure, but we have [00:37:00] been sold a big old fat lie. Society says, If you look good, you feel good. That is not what I have discovered.
Julie Michelson: the opposite.
Keira Barr: It's the opposite. When you feel good, you will look good. And from a place of feeling good, going to get the Botox, the filler, the procedure. Because that stuff is expensive. It requires maintenance, and I want everyone to get the best return on their investment as possible, because I cannot tell you how many clients I have that they look drop dead effing gorgeous.
Keira Barr: They've had all the things done. But when I ask, you know, how are you doing? Or how does this, you know, how are you feeling?
Julie Michelson: well, oh,
Keira Barr: what I'm thinking of one woman in particular. She's always in her mind. She's always asking the question. Do you love me now? Do you love me now? I've done this.
Keira Barr: Do you love me now? I've done this. Do you love me now?
Julie Michelson: that's
Keira Barr: It's so heartbreaking [00:38:00] because The question you should be asking right is like do I love me now? I need so that I can have a felt sense of my own care my own concern And you still may want to have the procedures and all but from that place Um
Julie Michelson: Yeah. From this place of self love, but also wellness. Um, we just had that have somebody was coming in for a fabulous. I think it's a, it's a great tool. Um, an RF microneedling procedure, because again, we want to be stimulating collagen. We need a little extra help and, and the girls, she wasn't a patient at the, on the functional medicine side.
Julie Michelson: And, and, The girls, I think, did like two rounds and, and they're good. And, and they were like, she looks like she has smokers skin. Come to find out. Yup. Active, you know, pack a day [00:39:00] smoke or she's not going to get the results. She's wasting her money. Um, and, and so, you know, it's like, okay, no, we need to be asking in the consults, some more of these lifestyle questions.
Julie Michelson: Because to, to drop money on a series of, of, again, I think it's a great, it's a great tool. Um, but if you're not healthy, you're not going to get the results you're looking for.
Keira Barr: And some people are okay with that, right? It's kind of knowing where they're at and what their perspective is, but
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Oh, and I'm not saying like, you don't deserve to feel like you look good. If you smile, I'm just saying like, no, that, that everything we're doing has an impact and yeah. And there's no magic wand. No.
Keira Barr: absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah, the opposite. It's so it amazes me that people did not get that memo that smoking is bad for your overall health, but especially the oxidative stress that it creates. Um, for skin. It is, [00:40:00] you know,
Julie Michelson: That's a real uphill battle for sure.
Keira Barr: UV exposure, right? The classic photos of, like, smoking a cigarette, getting the magda from, you know, something about Mary, like, it's just, there are certain things that will just age you a lot faster.
Julie Michelson: right. I love it. We could talk for hours, but I promised I was going to get you out of here on time. Um, I so love, love, love what you're doing, because it's, you are, and I love that you were just, you know, at the conference you were presenting at, because this is how we change medicine and make it even better, right?
Julie Michelson: And, and, um, you're pioneering Kind of a new direction for dermatology. And I, I celebrate you.
Keira Barr: Thank you. It is. It is lonely. Yeah, I present
Julie Michelson: It's lonely. I'm sure it's lonely.
Keira Barr: I presented at the, the [00:41:00] association meeting about shame and skin disease because. So many, that is like the primary symptom that so many of the women I work with experience is shame. Um, and nothing has gone wrong again. That is,
Julie Michelson: Right.
Keira Barr: you just need to learn how to, and, and you can heal that.
Keira Barr: Um, but at the Academy of dermatology, I present a session, mind, body medicine, what's the evidence. And I tell you, I am alone. It is lonely, but I will not give up because,
Julie Michelson: singing.
Keira Barr: um, yeah, it is, it is so important. We need. We need a comprehensive, holistic approach, right? We need the, the physical, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual, we need all of it to feel at home, at ease and comfort in the skin of ours.
Keira Barr: It's the only home we've got that, you know, so we want to, we want to, we want to love it. We want to feel good in it. We, you know, we might
Julie Michelson: And allow it to love us back. Like it really, it is, it becomes a win win. [00:42:00] So. What is one step that listeners can take before we let you go? And it could be anything under the sun to start to improve their health.
Keira Barr: Yeah, I think the thing is, I've said it a few times is just to, um, from a place of curiosity and compassion. When you look in the mirror, instead of criticizing. Perhaps, and having contempt, just look at what you're seeing as an opportunity and an invitation of, um, to turn your kind awareness. Um, towards what you might need in this moment, right?
Keira Barr: What's showing up is, is just a sign that maybe you're under resourced in some area. Maybe you all haven't been sleeping, maybe you've been scrolling on. So, I mean, listen, I'm guilty of staying up too late watching Hulu or whatever. Um, but I would say of see if you can just approach what you might see on your skin from a place of curiosity and compassion about what you might need in this moment.[00:43:00]
Julie Michelson: Love it. I love it. That is, and that alone, that's a huge step. Um, and, but it, it's something that all of us can do. one or two others can do more of. No matter what. And if it's. You know, if you've never even, um, Thought about it and mirror work is, is amazing, but, but really shifting, holding that curiosity.
Julie Michelson: Curiosity and compassion. I mean, just think if we all showed up in the world. And it always starts within us. Right. Which is, is what you're focused on. Um, but imagine the change. I know we're talking about dermatology and health, but really the change in the world that would be if everybody learned to show up with curiosity and compassion instead of criticism.
Julie Michelson: Yeah.
Keira Barr: It, it, you know, there is a huge ripple effect.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Uh, that was beautiful. So before we wrap up for people that are listening on the [00:44:00] go and aren't going to check the show notes, where's the best place to find you?
Keira Barr: So on instagram, um, dr Kira bar, I'm certain I'm not always the most active, but I'm starting to put more information out there because it's very clear there's education needed. My website drkeirabarr.com. And then I have a quiz. Actually, if you're curious about, does your skin care routine need an upgrade?
Keira Barr: This will give you a down and dirty quick Way to figure out what might need a little bit more of your attention and it's yourskincarequiz.com
Julie Michelson: Love it. Awesome. Uh, thank you so, so much. You, you really have shared a may I. My curiosity is peaked, which is what it's all about, right? That's what will drive us to take the next step and dig in and learn more. Um, so I'm sure listeners got a ton of value out of this as well.
Keira Barr: So, thank you so much
Julie Michelson: For everyone listening, remember you can get the transcripts [00:45:00] and show notes by visiting inspiredliving. show. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week.
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Keira Barr
Dr. Keira Barr is an innovator in transformative wellness, combining her work as a dual board-certified dermatologist, mind-body medicine specialist and somatic educator with body-based trauma healing approaches to skin health. As a breathwork facilitator, acclaimed keynote speaker and author, Dr. Keira teaches people around the world how to relieve stress and rejuvenate from within. With her Somatic Skincare™Methodology, Dr. Keira revolutionizes skincare as an act of radical self-care, blending science with soul to amplify biological resilience and confidence through evidence-based practices and somatic healing modalities. Her expertise, bridging the gap between skin health and mental health has earned recognition in top media outlets and prestigious medical journals including MindBodyGreen,Vogue, Glamour, SELF, HUFFPost, Oprah Magazine, and more.
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