Episode 138
Dr. Kathy Campbell:
A Pharmacist's Role in Supporting Autoimmune Health
In this episode I am joined by Dr. Kathy Campbell, a trailblazing clinical community pharmacist from Owasso, Oklahoma, and the author of Obesity, the Modern Famine. We dive into how our understanding of human evolution and the profound effects of modern culture can lead us back to true wellness.
Dr. Campbell shares her unique journey from a conventional pharmacist to an innovator who focuses on preventing rather than just treating with prescriptions.
First Aired on: May 6, 2024
Episode 138
Dr. Kathy Campbell:
A Pharmacist's Role in Supporting Autoimmune Health
In this episode I am joined by Dr. Kathy Campbell, a trailblazing clinical community pharmacist from Owasso, Oklahoma, and the author of Obesity, the Modern Famine. We dive into how our understanding of human evolution and the profound effects of modern culture can lead us back to true wellness.
Dr. Campbell shares her unique journey from a conventional pharmacist to an innovator who focuses on preventing rather than just treating with prescriptions.
First Aired on: May 6, 2024
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
Dr. Campbell’s Unique Pharmacy Practice:
Dr. Campbell discusses her evolution from a traditional pharmacist to focusing on a wellness and preventative care model within her practice. She describes her journey in the pharmacy sector, noting her long-term relationships with patients and her growing concern that medications alone were not achieving true health. This realization prompted her to shift towards a more holistic approach, aiming to reduce the need for prescriptions by addressing underlying health issues directly.Obesity as a Modern Epidemic:
The conversation explores the cultural and biochemical reasons behind the obesity epidemic. Dr. Campbell provides a poignant critique of the conventional medical approach to obesity, which often simplifies the issue to ‘eat less, exercise more’. She argues that such methods are not only ineffective but also punitive. Dr. Campbell emphasizes the complexity of obesity, describing it as a symptom of broader societal issues that include poor diet, lack of movement, and a misunderstanding of human body’s needs.The Importance of Movement and Natural Chemistry:
Dr. Campbell stresses the vital role of natural movement and its scarcity in modern life. She links sedentary lifestyles to a range of health problems, advocating for the integration of movement into daily routines as a natural part of life rather than structured exercise. She further discusses the biochemical processes affected by movement, particularly how muscle activity supports metabolic functions and overall health.Diet and Nutrition:
This segment delves into the critical role of diet in managing health, focusing on the importance of nutrient density and plant-based foods. Dr. Campbell argues against the calorie-counting model and promotes a diet rich in a variety of plants to support the gut microbiome and overall health. She discusses how modern diets are often deficient in essential nutrients, which impacts everything from mitochondrial function to hormone balance.The Role of Stress and Emotional Well-being:
Dr. Campbell discusses the impact of modern stress compared to historical stressors, noting how chronic stress affects bodily functions, including hormonal balance and metabolic health. She emphasizes the importance of managing stress through supportive relationships and community, as well as understanding the body’s stress responses.Revolutionizing Patient Care:
Emphasizing a patient-centered approach, Dr. Campbell talks about the need for healthcare to empower patients rather than dictate to them. She advocates for a model where patients are partners in their health journey, equipped with knowledge and supported by healthcare providers to make informed decisions about their care.Notable Quotes
“We started seeing more and more obesity, and I knew it wasn’t just about the food.” - Dr. Kathy Campbell
“The medications we were dispensing were not providing the level of vitality and health that I wanted for these people I cared about.” - Dr. Kathy Campbell
“We’re starved. We are in a society, in a culture that completely is devoid of what we need to function as a human species.” - Dr. Kathy Campbell
“The more fun you can have moving, the better.” - Dr. Kathy Campbell
Other Resources:
Connect with Dr. Kathy Campbell
Episode Transcript
Julie Michelson:[Page//00:00:00] Welcome back to the Inspired Living with Autoimmunity podcast. I'm your host, Julie Michelson, and today we're joined by Dr. Kathy Campbell, a clinical community pharmacist who owns and operates an appointment based practice within her full service pharmacy in Owosso, Oklahoma. She's also the author of Obesity, the Modern Famine.
Julie Michelson: And in today's conversation, we are talking about how understanding human evolution can lead us back to true wellness by addressing the missing pieces of our modern culture.
Julie Michelson: Dr. Kathy, welcome to the podcast.
Kathy Campbell: Hi Julie, great to be here.
Julie Michelson: I know a little bit about your story, but I would love for you to share with listeners, you know, how did you become the author of obesity, the modern famine? How did you shift this paradigm? I'm, I'm guessing some of your peers are thinking they're not practicing pharmacists in the [Page//00:01:00] same way you are.
Julie Michelson: So share a little bit of your journey with us. A
Kathy Campbell: um, I have been, I consider myself a clinical community pharmacist or a clinical wellness pharmacist, and I've been practicing in one town for 32 years, and I've had the profound privilege to serve four generations of patients. That is a very interesting point of view. I have known some of these patients longer than I've known my mother.
Kathy Campbell: And I did not want to get those conversations, I've got cancer, I've had a heart attack. And so as we've all aged, I started at 25, as we've all aged, um, I just became more and more aware that the medications we were dispensing were not providing the level of vitality and health that I wanted for these people I cared about.
Kathy Campbell: Um, Obesity was part of it. Um, you know, we started seeing more and more and more, and [Page//00:02:00] I just happened to be a personal expert in that because I've studied it my whole life. I was a hundred pounds at five years old, 200 pounds at 10 years old. And this is in the sixties and seventies. And I had a 350 pound grandpa who lived during the great depression at that weight. um, family, we were always one at the, the 10 percent of the population that was overweight, that was always us. And I knew it wasn't just about the food, um, 20 years of weight loss, low fat weight loss, all I've, I've studied it all through my own lens and then after gaining three degrees through the lens of my patients and, and these people I care about.
Kathy Campbell: And so over time, I. I was challenged to create, I'm an, I'm an entrepreneur, I have my own pharmacy, which is kind of an interesting place to be, and I was challenged to create a new product to actually serve my patients. Um, I didn't want to sell more prescriptions. [Page//00:03:00] I wanted to help them not need the prescriptions.
Kathy Campbell: And so, It's a little, uh, disruptive. Let's put it that way, at least it's, it's kind of counterintuitive. That's for sure. But it really is a great place to live. And as a chemist, as a, a, a, the professional change that is, uh, trained in metabolic function and biochemistry. And how to manipulate and change those things as we do with medications.
Kathy Campbell: I just started looking deeper. And then I started offering my knowledge to patients in helping them discover and figure out their journey because each of us are so unique. And so I partner with patients to do that. I'm a partner in health for sure.
Julie Michelson: What a lucky town you live in. I mean, really, this is the kind of pharmacy we need in every downtown, for sure.
Kathy Campbell: I wanted my patients to have a place to go and be well.
Julie Michelson: Yeah,
Kathy Campbell: You know, [Page//00:04:00] and seven out of 10 patients. are on a medication of some sort and they no longer have that pharmacist relationship to help them really understand and optimize whatever therapies they're on. I'm not against pharmaceuticals. I'm actually the one you want on your side.
Kathy Campbell: I am against you needing them. And so I have just shifted my focus and my business model to support patients and not needing pharmaceuticals.
Julie Michelson: which I love. And personally, I mean, I just I applaud you as somebody who was on 10 prescriptions at one point and half of which were for side effects of the other prescriptions. Um, I don't know, and who was in that model of nope, nothing you can do take your meds. So I just. Boy, if I had crossed your path,
Kathy Campbell: we would have dug in.
Julie Michelson: I would have maybe gotten here where I am now a little sooner, but that's okay.
Julie Michelson: We're here now.[Page//00:05:00]
Kathy Campbell: We'll get there.
Julie Michelson: So question for you, why? Why the obesity epidemic? Actually, let's even before we get there, maybe it's all part of the same answer. Um, what do you mean? I love the title of your book. Um, and I have my own ideas of what it means, but, but why obesity, the, the modern famine.
Kathy Campbell: We're starved. We are in a society, in a culture that completely is devoid of what we need to function as a human species. I have it broken down. There's about 24 famines that I've identified there. Fundamentally, I've got five chemistries, five criticals. You've got to have certain nutrients, You've got to have oxygen, sunlight, water, and connection,
Julie Michelson: So much of that is missing.
Kathy Campbell: Oh, it's completely devoid culturally, not individually. And actually, it's a cultural phenomenon [Page//00:06:00] that we've, I think we have to address. And what I do is coach individuals to assess their culture. And when you assess the culture, you are actually discovering what is it that your body is surviving. And when you When you can kind of tease that out, we can go about supporting that culture, crafting the culture and making it so that you can live on this Petri dish and actually have health as a byproduct.
Kathy Campbell: Um, I literally think of culture like the Petri dish. What are you living on? And how, how nurturing is the medium that you're there? yeah. Well, I, I often teach other pharmacists and other practitioners. And so that really seems to communicate. Okay.
Julie Michelson: sure. Especially the, some of us are the visual learners.
Kathy Campbell: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie Michelson: I love that. So what is it? I mean, that sounds so basic and listeners, you know, the book you're, you're, what brought you to this world was obesity, but all of these things are essential for healing and [Page//00:07:00] prevention period
Kathy Campbell: Absolutely.
Julie Michelson: these chronic illnesses that are on the rise today, including autoimmunity.
Kathy Campbell: Yes. And I've actually had several people who've read it who are not obese and they're like, man, I need this, but I would have never actually have picked it up. And, you know, to me, one of the things that I see and why I chose to focus it on obesity. Was the complete, um, bankrupt strategy medicine has around obesity.
Kathy Campbell: This eat less and exercise more is abusive and it is punitive and it actually causes stress hormone and chaos. And so these people need to be cared for and they need a new paradigm to stand in for themselves. And that's really what I wrote the book for. I wrote the book for, for the individual. Not at all for my peers, not at all for medicine.
Kathy Campbell: I need people to see that not [Page//00:08:00] only are these things playing in their, potentially in their situation, they are not, they can't be difficult to address. Um, and if they are difficult, they're not difficult because you're weak or you're lazy. They're just difficult because we live in a world that particularly makes it hard.
Kathy Campbell: Um, and, and I encourage people to get a little mad about that. Because when you get mad, the energy to focus on the things that we can do emerges and we might cook, or we might walk, or we might call a friend, or we might do some things differently that will create different outcomes.
Julie Michelson: I love that. Right. What's the definition of insanity
Kathy Campbell: Over and over.
Julie Michelson: and over expecting a different outcome. But, and it is true. And I, I think where, wherever it happens in their journey. Anger is an inevitable part of the healing process because so many of us were just trying to do the right thing. And we were completely [Page//00:09:00] misguided.
Julie Michelson: Um, so I want to get back to these. These, these basics, right? The nutrients, the oxygen, the wine, because people are like, Oh, please, I do all that. Hmm. Maybe not. And I think as a society, we're so trained to, you know, well, tell me what to avoid, right? We're always like what to take out, what to, you know, what, what are we going to be, you know, locked down about and instead of this, no, actually we're missing.
Julie Michelson: These things. Um, so I want to, I want to dig into that a little bit and, and share with us because you shared before we hit record, um, you have a zoology background.
Kathy Campbell: Well, yeah, I've got, um, three degrees, actually. I've got a bachelor's of zoology, a bachelor's of pharmacy, and then I went back and received my doctorate of pharmacy. And I, in thinking about, you know, my patients are looking to me, what should I do, [Page//00:10:00] Kathy? How should, and to counsel them, I wanted to, and with my own.
Kathy Campbell: Um, understanding, um, really understanding the evolution of humans and what was foundationally there, um, I think is a critical foundation. So humans evolved for 400, 000 years, hunting and gathering and moving in order to live. And when Whenever they were hungry and they had a stress hunger, they grabbed the leaf.
Kathy Campbell: They grabbed that which didn't run away, And it was rarely big game. I think it was very quite often it was plant, tubers, There was one article I read that said the gatherer saved the hunter almost, uh, very often. And so, leafs, tubers, bugs, eggs, nuts, um, fish. [Page//00:11:00] Fish was always a relatively common, if you look at where humans evolved, there was always a river close.
Kathy Campbell: Right? And so the Omega 3s, we never had to actually learn or evolve the ability to make because there was always a sardine around or some kind of fish that
Julie Michelson: well, and we weren't eating tons of omega sixes. to throw that ratio out of balance either.
Kathy Campbell: Right, and we weren't inflamed. There wasn't, the kind of inflammation we had was stepping on a rock or, or muscular, it was not intravascular.
Julie Michelson: well, like stress, right? Like we, we had, we had acute stressors, not chronic stress, which is one of the things we all, you know, this is in our Petri dish
Kathy Campbell: Yeah,
Julie Michelson: for sure.
Kathy Campbell: I actually think about it as pharmacology, which is the study of chemicals interacting in the body. But I also think food [Page//00:12:00] pharmacology, how those body of chemicals actually work in the body. But the hard one, those things are easy compared to stress pharmacology. Uh, but when I say stress pharmacology, there's two sides to that coin.
Kathy Campbell: There's the ones that are very challenging and have us survive in a fight or flight. But there's also the love and the nurturing and the oxytocin that is the counterbalance and that is one of the famines. The fact that we don't have as much of those love chemistries and connection chemistries and that is the chemistry.
Kathy Campbell: And those are very difficult. I mean, my patients are chronically challenged with the demands. And, you know, I'm a good girl. I was born in the sixties and I have an identity that has me be a good girl. So any threat to that just gets the whole machine in chaos. And I, I'm not alone. You see that quite often, especially in my generation.
Kathy Campbell: Um, so yeah, it
Julie Michelson: Wow. So [Page//00:13:00] that's that connection piece. Um, let's talk a little bit. I love, I want to circle back and highlight, um, cause I, I refer often to paleolithic times, you know, again, back to real food and what were we eating? Um, and, but I really want to highlight this, this idea of movement, you know, that it was just a daily part of life. because I, again, I think this is where society, like we go too big now and a lot of listeners, you know, have physical challenges there. And so I, I don't love the word exercise, um, as it's, as it's received because you know, a lot of people jump to CrossFit and gyms and we don't necessarily need all that.
Julie Michelson: If you love it and you're doing it in a way that supports your body instead of drives inflammation. Great. But I, you're not going to. Find me at the gym. [Page//00:14:00] Um, now I have equipment at home. Doesn't mean I'm not taking care of my body.
Kathy Campbell: right. No, I mean, it's a really important topic, and I, especially if you think of where I'm at in a pharmacy situation, I have people that run the gamut of being bed fast for six months and have to rehabilitate. I actually like the concept pre habilitate instead of rehabilitate, but that's another conversation.
Kathy Campbell: So, um, again, humans. I hate the term exercise and I rarely recommend it. It's not exactly what needs to happen and it's also a weapon that is used in our medical system and to judge each other or even ourselves. So I try to really separate that conversation. Um, we aren't, and it's great the blue zones, the blue zone research that just jumped off the map that nobody in these blue zones, that would be a hundred, routinely exercise.
Kathy Campbell: But they all move. And
Julie Michelson: They [Page//00:15:00] moved and had that connection and purpose, right? So, you know, grandma might be walking up the steps in the village to teach something or, you know, there was this constant, she wasn't in the gym, but she was moving every day
Kathy Campbell: was moving.
Julie Michelson: connected to community.
Kathy Campbell: Yeah, a hundred year old women in Okinawa squatting. All the time and getting up and down. They never had to worry about getting off and down, getting up and down from a toilet because they were sitting on the floor, getting up 50 times a day. So that movement was built into their their life.
Kathy Campbell: Now, as a chemist, I'm always trying to figure out the biochemistry. And I really think as most pharmacists do with this thing called mechanism action. So I revisited relearn. So here's this. Here's a a, um, a little secret for your medical [Page//00:16:00] practitioners. We all passed this test that, that studied the micro, the mitochondria and the Krebs cycle and completely forgot it right afterwards because it was so traumatic.
Kathy Campbell: Okay. So I went back and started digging in to the mitochondrial function and the electron transport chains and all these metabolic processes, which I'm manipulating with drugs. But it just occurred to me that nobody was having really good function to begin with. what was interesting is I was preparing for a presentation and I pulled up the ATP molecule, adenosine triphosphate, which is our little battery pack, right?
Kathy Campbell: And what was remarkable to me when I was just looking at it was this little molecule that we have to actually create our body weight every day. We have to manufacture our body weight and utilize our body weight every day. Each molecule has 13 atoms of oxygen on it. So that's why. If I put [Page//00:17:00] a pillow over your face, you're not going to be here very long because in order, you have to have the oxygen deep within the cell to generate the energy that runs our machine.
Kathy Campbell: Now, heart was never designed to be the only pump that put it there. Never. And that's why we see so many. cardiovascular issues that have diseases of low oxygenation. Actually, many of the chronic diseases have low oxygenation issues like 65%. The heart is important in circulating, but more than that is the muscular contraction of everything else.
Kathy Campbell: to help drive that oxygen. And that was naturally provided for with hunting and gathering and utilizing your body to live. And so part of the big missing is famine of movement. We just do not have the kinds, types, and frequency of movements at any stage in our modern culture. [Page//00:18:00] And I actually think the more fun you can have moving, the better.
Kathy Campbell: And, and we've got to build that into where it is a natural, fun way to do it. I, I want to sponsor, I'm in the process of sponsoring city, uh, citywide, communitywide dances. Again, we need some polka. We need some square dance. We need the kind of things that we can connect socially, emotionally, cognitively, and physically and not even realize we're doing it
Julie Michelson: Right. That's the, the, the best way, you know, absolutely. And when it is fun, you're creating that feedback loop and you keep doing it. Right. I was thinking, as you were talking about the heart as a pump, so I'm an equestrian. I live on a little farm, have my horses and other horse people that are out there already know this.
Julie Michelson: But every, you know, horses have what's called a frog in their hoof. in the center of the hoof. It's soft. It's [Page//00:19:00] not a, it's not part of the actual, you know, gelatinous hoof structure. And it's a pump to pump the blood. It's a mini heart, pumps the blood back up those skinny little legs into the 1200 pound body.
Julie Michelson: And so it would make perfect sense You know, that we would be created, created with also some, I don't even want to say redundancy systems, but you know, more than one approach here to get our blood circulating and oxygenating. So I love, I love that you brought that up.
Kathy Campbell: Well, low oxygen creates low ATP production, low iron. You know, anything that interrupts that whole delivery system of oxygen is complete. Yeah, all of it. And, you know, heavy metals, all that is disrupting the ATP production. But fundamentally, if you don't have enough oxygen, instead of the 38 units that you potentially could make, you might be making 10 units.
Kathy Campbell: And if that's [Page//00:20:00] the case, the body appropriately sequesters the energy where it has to, which is warm and breathing. You're not going to be happy. You're not going to be cognitively fit. You're going to be grumpy and irritable. You're going to be obese. as a survival mechanism to that whole dynamic. And so when I help people with this, those are the basics.
Kathy Campbell: And it's amazing what can happen when you get those basics built into your life again. Yes. Yes.
Julie Michelson: it's just. Thanks. Really good science. And, and that is the, I love that you said that's the, the whole point of this conversation is because the body can heal and recover. It doesn't matter how many decades of not getting enough of these things. Um, you know, it is, it is miraculous. And, and so I'm living proof.
Kathy Campbell: Amen.
Julie Michelson: Yeah, I love it. Let's circle back to the first one in your list was nutrients. Um, and, you know, [Page//00:21:00] again, we're always talking about, you know, don't eat gluten and avoid this and don't do that. And um, I, we, I believe you're on the already on the same page, you know, it's not calories in calories out, eat less, exercise more nutrient density.
Julie Michelson: Um, tell me a little bit about your approach, you know, whether it's specific nutrients you think we're missing, or is it just this processed food and this petri dish that we live in?
Kathy Campbell: Well, I say it's the chemistry, not the calories that count. Uh, the chemistry and 100 100 calorie chicken breast versus 100 calorie donut are completely different. Chemistry is creating completely different outcomes. And we have to start, I think being disruptive as we think about that. So there's, you know, we look at nutrients and if you look at nutrients, there's about 180 that are identified by the FDA government that are important, but they have found an [Page//00:22:00] astonishing 26, 000 different chemicals and whole foods.
Kathy Campbell: Okay, there's 2300 chemicals, unique chemical entities in garlic alone. So This whole concept of vitamins, I think, is way too limiting. So what I tell patients is, Ah, we got to get the food as right as possible. We've got to get as much of these 27, 6000 chemicals in you so your body has this smorgasbord to work with, right, of chemistry.
Kathy Campbell: Uh, You know, one of the things that I see a lot is the, especially in Oklahoma, is the use of medical marijuana. And when you look at the
Julie Michelson: in Colorado, so just the use of marijuana, period. Woohoo!
Kathy Campbell: And so when you look at the biochemistry of that, I actually, I, Don't distinguish chemistry. I'm a chemist.
Kathy Campbell: I'm looking at all the chemistry. I'm not just holding on to these patent drugs. I'm looking at how the body is being [Page//00:23:00] impacted. And when you look at the endocannabinoid system in this particular group and you study it, you realize there are endocannabinoid can these these chemicals in all plant. Okay, so there's these chemicals in rosemary and broccoli and seeds.
Kathy Campbell: These similar endocannabinoids in water. Chemicals that you'll find highly concentrated in marijuana. You're finding it in all plants. I actually think we're medicating a plant and movement deficiency, and so without the proper chem plant chemicals, we have to as, like I said, adapt. So I think we are profoundly deficient in in plant.
Kathy Campbell: Uh, nutrients and that's mostly non starchy vegetables, but, you know, I, I count them all. Then there's nuts, legumes. I want that breadth and that smorgasbord of chemistry. So I tend to go with a modified Mediterranean, which is a lower glycemic impact. Uh, most of the people walking into my pharmacy that I'm [Page//00:24:00] interacting with.
Kathy Campbell: Are in this prediabetic metabolic chaos stage, which is about 88 percent of the population. So reducing generally getting a lot more plant in 7 to 10 cups of vegetables a day, getting more protein in. Cups or servings, however you, you do that, uh, getting more protein in, which is in that, you know, 7 to 12, um, servings a day, depending on your size and your muscle mass, um, is a beginning.
Kathy Campbell: And I always tell people we gotta eat a heck of a lot of the right stuff, and it is a lot, but we also have to digest and absorb it.
Julie Michelson: Right!
Kathy Campbell: You know, and so if you don't have a gut that fully functions, or you don't have teeth, or you don't have these process, or you're not cooking, even the process of cooking is preparing your digestion to assimilate and digest and absorb these nutrients so they can carry it into [Page//00:25:00] that mitochondria eventually.
Kathy Campbell: So I work at all those steps to try to optimize that, but basically plant and protein. The other reason that we're really missing a need plant is for the benefit of our gut microbiome. That is a garden we have to tend, and what, what, what bacteria need and want to thrive is fiber, and you get fiber from non starchy plants, so, you know, for the most part, and some of the
Julie Michelson: Not from a bottle of Metamucil or whatever. I'm kidding.
Kathy Campbell: no, no, I get it, I mean, I, trust me, I've sold a bit of Metamucil in my days, but Metamucil But I always go back to this other because I think there's just way more bang for the buck and I think if you really want a system that works, you got to give it the gas it needs to work and you know, you don't wait until your airplanes in the in the sky to figure out you got the wrong gas.
Kathy Campbell: You need to be tending it along the way.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Well, and [Page//00:26:00] I love that you hit on protein as well, um,
Kathy Campbell: Mm
Julie Michelson: because I see a lot, uh, most people that are coming in, even, even if they're already eating whole real foods, you know, pretty nutrient dense, they're not getting enough protein. It's, it's really interesting. And so, especially then if we're talking about, you know, somebody who is trying to lose weight or is going to lose weight from changing to a whole real food diet, We don't want you losing muscle.
Julie Michelson: You know, you need those building blocks. So it, it is, it's, it's just something that things tend to, I'm sure you see it too, like cyclically. And, and right now it's pretty much everybody. I've been, even the men that I have one, I client, I, he has a good sense of humor, which is why he can work with me. Um, and I tell him all the time, like, stop eating like a middle school girl.
Kathy Campbell: hmm.
Julie Michelson: you are a [Page//00:27:00] grown man. You need more protein.
Kathy Campbell: Well, I actually have a body composition machine and in body in my my office and.
Julie Michelson: the clinic as well. Yep.
Kathy Campbell: unbelievably amazing tool to assess the direction that the body is, especially with medications. I can look that stress, I can see that. And so it's profound. Oh, most frightening thing is the sickest people I see are normal weight, middle aged women
Julie Michelson: Right.
Kathy Campbell: because they've starved themselves their whole life.
Kathy Campbell: Oh, even to the point of so sarcopenic, I'm afraid they're going to break. You know, the bones and everything else and this whole metabolic function occurs within muscle within the mitochondrion muscle. So lose, you never want to lose weight at the expense of muscle. And one of the things we're seeing with the new weight loss drugs is, is that whole massive Okay.
Kathy Campbell: detriment. And the other thing, muscle, muscle, low muscle predisposes you to [Page//00:28:00] dementia and osteoporosis and all these other things. So it's really why I got the machine because I wanted everybody to age better. And I knew if I could manage and modify and understand muscle for patients and they could too, then we could go on a path.
Kathy Campbell: The other thing I see is medications are really impacting the ability of the body to, break down and then utilize protein. And when you don't have enough protein, your body cannibalizes itself. And that's when you start seeing these diseases of very low nutrients. Um, and they're there. I'm fortunately pretty epidemic and I'm seeing it more and more in younger and younger men.
Kathy Campbell: Which is very frightening to have a 20 year old man who should be at the height of his muscle be 10 pounds low. And that is like not a good, that's not the direction I [Page//00:29:00] want for my peeps, that's for sure.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And it is, uh, you know, so we were talking about earlier in this drop in hormone levels across the board. In younger people, fertility challenges, but not just fertility challenges, you know, somebody in their 20s, a man in their 20s should have, you know, pretty prime testosterone. And I'm guessing in this particular case, that was a factor as well.
Julie Michelson: Right.
Kathy Campbell: things of my 32 years was about a year ago. I had two 28 year old men consult with me with the same issues. They could not create normal sperm. And, You know, this whole it's very complex. Yes, hormones are part of it. But if you're inflamed, your body is not is going to shunt everything to a cortisol pathway at the expense of these sex hormones.
Kathy Campbell: Um, and, and that's what it does to survive. But, but [Page//00:30:00] we, we are not addressing that root cause or that underlying driver. Which the body just doesn't have enough chemistry to knit this thing together. And the demands are higher than the supply. So I do bioidentical compound hormone compounding and have for 20 plus years.
Kathy Campbell: So I've been, yeah, yeah. And I teach, I teach a lot about it because women come to me often in men saying, I want estrogen. And I'm like, well, but there's a whole bucket of other hormones we need to be talking about.
Julie Michelson: Right. And I even hear, I heard a practitioner yesterday specifically referring to only estrogen and progesterone for women. And I'm like, it's not all there is. And even I had a complete hysterectomy four years ago, um, with an oophorectomy for Intentional genetic predisposition kind of choices. Um, and wasn't worried about it because I have great [Page//00:31:00] support, but my gynecologist, who's a fantastic surgeon, said, Well, you don't, you don't have a uterus anymore.
Julie Michelson: You can stop your progesterone. And I was like, I still have other organs.
Kathy Campbell: Yeah, your brain really likes it.
Julie Michelson: Uh huh. And I, I'm a Bredesen coach. I'm like, no, you know, thanks. And I, that
Kathy Campbell: tell people, progesterone binds to the same place in the brain as valium. You do not want a deficiency there. Because that, what happens is estrogen, I kind of call it a bitchy hormone. Get her done, get her done,
Julie Michelson: Yes. And progesterone is calming.
Kathy Campbell: very
Julie Michelson: And well, everything in the body has these opposing forces. And, and so that's the, I under, we didn't always live this long.
Kathy Campbell: hmm.
Julie Michelson: if we want to live well, you know, it made sense that especially women, but we were just touching on, you know, younger and younger men are having challenges as well.
Julie Michelson: But, you know, it used to be have children. If you [Page//00:32:00] make it to menopause, well, you're kind of done anyway on the planet. And now it's like, no, I want to be well. I want to be productive. I want to be strong, happy, all the things I want to live. Well, um, I, I had one client, I could not believe it. She had been on bioidentical hormones when she retired.
Julie Michelson: They told her she didn't need them anymore. Why that's not nice.
Kathy Campbell: Ignorance and arrogance, you know, that that's a deadly combination. Uh, and in, in some, in good faith, you know, the women's study was so poorly handled on how it was interpreted
Julie Michelson: And it's, that's still the information that so many are latched onto, even though it's. It's, you know, there's, there's better, newer, you know, it, it's, it's crazy. It is, I think one of the studies that almost everybody knows about and, but they don't know the accurate information,
Kathy Campbell: They, they don't under, they don't really understand that it actually [Page//00:33:00] showed protection and what showed not protection was the synthetic progestin. So
Julie Michelson: And I say this all the time. I love my horses. I don't want to take their hormones and I don't want to give them mine because I'm not a horse. So,
Kathy Campbell: I think, you know, one of the things that's happened is we've been groomed to think that health is in the pill bottle. And the god of pharmacology overtake, took physiology. And so when you go back to basic physiology and you look at the dysfunctions that happen when basic physiology is disrupted, you just don't have enough chemistry to bake the cake.
Kathy Campbell: You know, you don't have enough ingredients. What's going to happen? And all the body's gonna. Adapt. Well, that's my whole point of view is let's give it what it was designed to have in a responsible amount and let the individual help us [Page//00:34:00] discover the nuances of the individual optimal optimization because you're you're your only biochemical entity.
Kathy Campbell: You're the expert in your bag of bones. What I know doesn't matter. It's really what you know and what you can understand is where outcomes happen. It's where health happens. But it's that love and therapeutic relationship that can allow the health to emerge. And so, um, get me going. I love this. I mean, it, it, we got to give the
Julie Michelson: Sing it sister. Yeah.
Kathy Campbell: the basics and then stop messing it up with this toxic stuff we call food. You know, we have a whole, you know, I, I see it as the 80s is when it shifted and you and I remembered it because we did not grow up eating a kid's meal.
Julie Michelson: right. Right.
Kathy Campbell: We ate what our parents ate,
Julie Michelson: Yeah.
Kathy Campbell: if we didn't like it, too bad, you didn't eat anything.
Kathy Campbell: And then, wow,
Julie Michelson: my family was in [Page//00:35:00] the dairy business and had, you know, history of heart disease in the family. And sadly we had like margarine on the table, you know, I mean, we bought in the hook line and sinker to the whole, you know, low fat craze and fake food is better than, you know, So, um, and it didn't work, my dad passed at 54, so it didn't, you know, didn't work, um.
Julie Michelson: But so getting back to that that real food, but I think part of the it's it's training right this looking for the fix in the bottle, you know, get what's the one thing. Give me the one one thing. And, but I love what you said about. I'm going to misquote you but us being something then expert in our own bag of bones right like. We need to reclaim that and be not only our own advocates, but that also with that empowerment comes responsibility, then we have to do the things once we know [Page//00:36:00] what the things are, because,
Kathy Campbell: I mean, we do, or we create a life where they may are easy to do. I think that's a piece of it too. I don't think it should be as daggum hard to be well, other cultures, it's not that hard. Um, so if we get a
Julie Michelson: we've gotten so far away from that, you know, um,
Kathy Campbell: I think the internet's going to change things a little bit. I think, I think there's a lot more information. No longer is information expensive. And the doctor isn't the only one that has it. So what medicine hasn't quite figured out is that the consumer is now in the center of their care. And they are creating, if they're doing it right, a network of people around them to counsel, consult, support.
Kathy Campbell: I always tell my patients if you're putting anything in your body that's chemical, you need a pharmacist, but a good hairdresser is pretty valuable too. You know, so, but this is a partner in health network that where [Page//00:37:00] the patient is the center, but we don't, That's not the business of health care right now.
Kathy Campbell: Health care is about a, no, you have to have a diagnosis. You have to be sick and to tap into the 4. 7 trillion called insurance. Um, I think the consumer can change that and the employer has to start looking upstream of the diagnosis, but that's my little rant.
Julie Michelson: Sing it. Rant away. Um, it, it, it is, and again, it, it takes time, but as you said, it's the, the, the community, um, you know, when you're, when you're surrounded by other people, You know, doing the things and creating that lifestyle. It does become easy and it's always really easy. And I remember when I first learned the impact that lifestyle could have.
Julie Michelson: on my rheumatoid arthritis. [Page//00:38:00] And I remember a friend saying to me, and I was at the time eating pretty close to like Wahl's protocol. So, I mean, I was eating all the veggies. I was eating lots of healthy fats, clean proteins, lots of food. And I remember one of my good friends said, you know, I, I think maybe you have an eating disorder.
Julie Michelson: You just don't, you just don't eat. She must've offered me like Doritos or something. And I said, no, thank you. And it's like, you know, it is so much easier to create big change. It's always one step at a time, but when you were in a place where you didn't feel well or you were
Kathy Campbell: Mm hmm.
Julie Michelson: and then, you know, you get that, your body gives you the reinforcement, then it's not hard at all.
Julie Michelson: It's, you know, and so, um, this is a perfect opportunity actually, because we could talk for five hours.
Kathy Campbell: Yes, we could. Ha
Julie Michelson: that my, that the audience has that bandwidth, um, where, what would be one step? It [Page//00:39:00] doesn't have to be the first step, but what is like one step that listeners can take starting today to improve their health?
Kathy Campbell: Find vegetables. Find them in your day. I mean, people bring me donuts, they don't bring me broccoli, so I have to find those plants to show up. And I, you know, people have different relationships with vegetables. I get it. Some, some people don't like them or they like just green beans. Start there. Start where you are, good, better, best, and go from there.
Kathy Campbell: But increasing your consumption of plants. is the first step, I
Julie Michelson: Love it. Love it. The adding in, we talked about this earlier, I, you know, adding in is so important even before you take out because it makes the avoiding what you shouldn't be doing or eating that much
Kathy Campbell: Yeah. It
Julie Michelson: So
Kathy Campbell: does.
Julie Michelson: For people that are listening on the go and aren't going to check the show notes, where is the best place to find you [Page//00:40:00] and, and plug the book one more time.
Julie Michelson: So listeners know where to look.
Kathy Campbell: The best place is probably at 76th and Main in Owasso, Oklahoma. Let me tell you, that's where I tend to live, but you're not gonna get me there. DrKathySays. com, um, is probably the best place and feel free to reach out. DrKathy with a K, yes, absolutely. Um, like I said, I'm a little technically challenged, technology challenged.
Kathy Campbell: I went to school with the best typewriter. So this whole social media thing is just a little frustrating sometimes. But, I answer emails, I call people back, so there is that. Uh, the book is, the book is Obesity, the Modern Famine, and I'm extraordinarily proud of it. It is written for the layman. It is written for somebody who doesn't have a clue or care about the 250 citations in the back.
Kathy Campbell: It's for somebody who wants to understand the foundational drivers of health and obesity. And, um, and how to [Page//00:41:00] work with those. It's very gentle, and I'm getting some really good feedback from people who appreciate the, uh, The, the approach, um, when you're starved in something and you can identify that, you can start gently loving yourself in a way, uh, and creating that world where it starts to show up and you're starting to be taken care of.
Julie Michelson: So beautiful. I'm excited to read the book, um, because I will. I will, I know I'll, I'll learn a lot, but I also will check out the citations in the back cause
Kathy Campbell: Good.
Julie Michelson: a geek. Um, so
Kathy Campbell: I do too.
Julie Michelson: and again, wellness is wellness, right? So, so obesity is not this too many calories in and not enough calories out. So all of the things in your approach to helping people return to, or maybe for the first time find true wellness, it's the same thing.
Julie Michelson: Um, as, as I do with people with autoimmunity, people with dementia and Alzheimer's, it's [Page//00:42:00] wellness is wellness. So,
Kathy Campbell: Yeah, obesity is a symptom.
Julie Michelson: right.
Kathy Campbell: It's just a symptom, and it's an appropriate symptom of survival, and those who are carrying extra wheat or have struggled with this should really sit back, and they should acknowledge their body's miraculous, uh, success in its survival. And we haven't helped it a bit, so hopefully with this book, we will give you some gentle help, uh, to maybe address some of the underlying drivers that have never been addressed with you.
Julie Michelson: Dr. Cathy, thank you so much. You've given us amazing gold today
Kathy Campbell: Yeah, thank you, Julie. It's my pleasure.
Julie Michelson: for everyone listening. Remember you can get the transcripts and show notes by visiting inspired living. show. Hope you had a good time and enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week. [Page//00:43:00]
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Connect with Dr. Kathy Campbell
Dr. Kathy Campbell
Dr. Campbell is a clinical community pharmacist, entrepreneur, and industry innovator. She owns and operates an appointment-based practice within her full-service family pharmacy in the town of Owasso, OK.
Her 32-year, four generation practice is focused on providing foundational, proactive health through metabolic optimization. ‘DrKathy’s’ pharmacist-led lifestyle programs includes supplement and food solutions (DrKathy NOURxISH), as well as health education and coaching (DrKathy Health). She is active in pharmacy and patient advocacy and is an author (Obesity:The Modern Famine Feb. 2024), speaker and health industry consultant. Dr. Campbell attended the University of Oklahoma receiving in 1992 a BS in both pharmacy and zoology and in 2005 a Doctor of Pharmacy. Dr. Campbell is a wife of 25 years to Royce and a mom to three wonderful young adults, Abby, Emma and Bradley.
Her 32-year, four generation practice is focused on providing foundational, proactive health through metabolic optimization. ‘DrKathy’s’ pharmacist-led lifestyle programs includes supplement and food solutions (DrKathy NOURxISH), as well as health education and coaching (DrKathy Health). She is active in pharmacy and patient advocacy and is an author (Obesity:The Modern Famine Feb. 2024), speaker and health industry consultant. Dr. Campbell attended the University of Oklahoma receiving in 1992 a BS in both pharmacy and zoology and in 2005 a Doctor of Pharmacy. Dr. Campbell is a wife of 25 years to Royce and a mom to three wonderful young adults, Abby, Emma and Bradley.
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