Episode 52
Episode 52
Dr. Aimie Apigian:
The Biology of Trauma
In this episode we take the conversation from episode 37 on the biology of trauma a bit deeper,
and discuss how we can observe our patterns of handling the every day stuff to identify if
trauma may be disguising who we really are.
First Aired on: Sep 12, 2022
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
Today Dr. Aimie Apigian joins us again to continue our conversation from episode 37 on the biology of trauma.
Dr. Aimie is a Double Board-Certified Medical Physician in both Preventive and Addiction Medicine and holds Double Masters Degrees in Biochemistry and in Public Health.
She is the leading medical expert on addressing stored trauma in the body through her signature model and methodology, The Biology of Trauma™: a new lens that courageously uplevels the old methods of trauma work and medicine by reverse-engineering trauma's effects on the nervous system and body on a cellular level.
In our last conversation, Dr. Aimie shares why everything we have been taught about trauma was wrong!
We pick up this week digging into how to tell where trauma is showing up in our lives, and how your patterns may be covering up who you really are.
We all create patterns around coping mechanisms.
Over Responders and Under Responders
We tend to use these patterns in order to avoid feeling a certain emotion
Lonliness, grief, etc…fill in the blank.
These unresolved emotions will always come back up.
These patterns are programmed from early experiences (before we can remember) and we think that it is just how we are…our personality, when it isn’t!
Over Responders
Tend to not be able to calm the system down and react to even the smallest disruptions as if they are big.
Our amygdala is designed to take in sensory information and decide in a millisecond if it is a current threat or not…often in an over responder, everything seems like a current threat.
Under Responders
Typically experience overwhelm early on and utilize the dorsal-vagal brake as an infant to stop the runaway train. This creates a collapse, an escape within oneself…
The freeze response. Always an under reaction.
Many under responders physically have a posture of shame.
The gift of acute stress is sacred!
It is designed to protect us.
It is never too late to grow and heal!
As long as you are still breathing, you can step into neuroplasticity and retrain.
There is an essential order and timing to the steps to heal, in order to avoid further trauma and damage.
It can be dangerous to pick up a practice such as meditation or breathwork if you aren’t ready.
Meditation can reinforce the disconnect or be too much too fast for some, depending on where they are in their journey.
There is an essential order to feel safe while growing.
Physical symptoms are messages of the body feeling unsafe.
How do we examine our patterns?
Ask the question “why.”
“Why am I doing this?”
Extend NONJUDGEMENTAL CURIOSITY.
Dr. Aimie is a Double Board-Certified Medical Physician in both Preventive and Addiction Medicine and holds Double Masters Degrees in Biochemistry and in Public Health.
She is the leading medical expert on addressing stored trauma in the body through her signature model and methodology, The Biology of Trauma™: a new lens that courageously uplevels the old methods of trauma work and medicine by reverse-engineering trauma's effects on the nervous system and body on a cellular level.
In our last conversation, Dr. Aimie shares why everything we have been taught about trauma was wrong!
We pick up this week digging into how to tell where trauma is showing up in our lives, and how your patterns may be covering up who you really are.
We all create patterns around coping mechanisms.
Over Responders and Under Responders
We tend to use these patterns in order to avoid feeling a certain emotion
Lonliness, grief, etc…fill in the blank.
These unresolved emotions will always come back up.
These patterns are programmed from early experiences (before we can remember) and we think that it is just how we are…our personality, when it isn’t!
Over Responders
Tend to not be able to calm the system down and react to even the smallest disruptions as if they are big.
Our amygdala is designed to take in sensory information and decide in a millisecond if it is a current threat or not…often in an over responder, everything seems like a current threat.
Under Responders
Typically experience overwhelm early on and utilize the dorsal-vagal brake as an infant to stop the runaway train. This creates a collapse, an escape within oneself…
The freeze response. Always an under reaction.
Many under responders physically have a posture of shame.
The gift of acute stress is sacred!
It is designed to protect us.
It is never too late to grow and heal!
As long as you are still breathing, you can step into neuroplasticity and retrain.
There is an essential order and timing to the steps to heal, in order to avoid further trauma and damage.
It can be dangerous to pick up a practice such as meditation or breathwork if you aren’t ready.
Meditation can reinforce the disconnect or be too much too fast for some, depending on where they are in their journey.
There is an essential order to feel safe while growing.
Physical symptoms are messages of the body feeling unsafe.
How do we examine our patterns?
Ask the question “why.”
“Why am I doing this?”
Extend NONJUDGEMENTAL CURIOSITY.
Other Resources:
Connect with Dr. Aimie Apigian
Watch this interview:
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Julie Michelson: Welcome back to the inspired living with autoimmunity podcast. I'm your host, Julie Michaelson. And today we are joined again by Dr Aimie Apigian to delve deeper into the biology of trauma. If you missed it, tune into episode 37 to hear part one of our conversation. We continue today by talking about our coping patterns and how they can give us insight into whether programming from early [00:01:00] experiences might be why, who we think we are.
[00:01:03] Isn't who we really are. Dr. Amy unpacks, the patterns of over responding and under responding and why they used to serve us, but no longer do. And why the gift of the stress response is sacred.
[00:01:18] Dr. Amy. Welcome back to the podcast.
[00:01:22] Aimie Apigian, MD: Thank you, Julie. It's good to be here.
[00:01:24] Julie Michelson: I am so excited to continue our conversation and dig in a little deeper. I encourage any listeners who, who missed our first episode together to, to go back. And those links will be in the show notes, but. We're talking about the biology of trauma. And one of the questions I really wanted to have time to unpack with you is how do we know?
[00:01:49] You know, I know so many people who say I'm not stressed. I don't have trauma. I, you know, I'm fine. Right. I'm fine. I'm fine. So how, how, what [00:02:00] are, look, where do we start? How do we know that? Like, oh, maybe this is something we need to be looking into.
[00:02:08] Aimie Apigian, MD: You know, for me, so much of it comes down to our patterns, Julie, and because we can, when we don't even know what we're looking for, how do we see it?
[00:02:18] Julie Michelson: Right.
[00:02:20] Aimie Apigian, MD: And we've had the wrong definition of trauma all along. So it's not like we can use that as our definition of whether we have had trauma or not. So we can't use the definition of, oh, this big, scary thing that happened to us at some point in our life.
[00:02:35] And so. We really are gonna be looking at patterns, especially around patterns, around coping mechanisms, Julie, and one of the most common patterns that I see in people who have stored trauma, if you wanna call it that in their bodies is they notice that they use something in order to not [00:03:00] feel a certain emotion. and for different people, it's a different emotion for
[00:03:06] Julie Michelson: different something.
[00:03:07] Aimie Apigian, MD: and a different something. Yes, exactly. So for some people, it's the loneliness. They, they have such a hard time actually feeling that loneliness that at, at the first whispers of it, they're turning on the TV. They're going to the kitchen, they're grabbing the chocolate.
[00:03:27] They're calling a friend because just sitting with that body sensation is so painful, so uncomfortable for other people. It's grief.
[00:03:39] And so much of, of what I see is when we experience a grief and we have unresolved grief from the past, it brings up all of those prior griefs in our life that we haven't actually fully grieved.
[00:03:57] And that's a trauma response. So if a person's [00:04:00] not actually able to fully grieve something that was a trauma response. And so anything in a person's life where they just see a pattern, become aware of a pattern around, ah, I use this, I do this in order to not feel this. That is one of the, the, the most common patterns that we can use to actually identify.
[00:04:28] Do we have. Store trauma. And then again, you fill in the blanks with what that is and what you don't wanna feel.
[00:04:37] Julie Michelson: yes. And I know I've heard you mention before the, what that is may change, right? Like
[00:04:44] Aimie Apigian, MD: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm
[00:04:45] Julie Michelson: in a. Time where you're trying to be healthier. You're run, you're running literally physically trying to outrun those emotions versus out eat, or, you
[00:04:56] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yes, it really can be anything. It can be [00:05:00] work. Do you throw yourself into your work in order to not feel something right? Or maybe even just is, is your. Is the level that, in which you put into your work as a result of fear in your life, fear of finances, fear, well, be lack of finances, right? But are your, are your decisions, are your actions.
[00:05:22] Coming from a place of fear, is that what's motivating your actions or is it because it's truly like your life purpose and what you love doing? And it doesn't even feel like work. And so we can look at what is, what is behind. Are behaviors and whether it's using a coping mechanism, because again, even that right there is fear, right, Julie, right?
[00:05:47] Like I'm afraid to fear. I'm a, I'm afraid to, to, to feel I'm afraid to feel scared. I'm afraid to feel anxious. I'm afraid to feel lonely. Or I'm afraid that I won't have enough. So I'm gonna work, work, work. I'm [00:06:00] gonna, I'm afraid that I'm not enough. So I'm gonna run, run, run. I'm afraid that I'm too fat.
[00:06:05] I'm right. Like there's so much. Fear that can drive our life. And that fear is always actually coming from a trauma place. We just haven't recognized actually what trauma is. And so we don't, we, we don't, you know, be able, we're not able to say, oh yes, I have trauma, but we can look at these behaviors and what motivates our behaviors, what motivates our decisions in life.
[00:06:30] And that's how we can find the store trauma.
[00:06:34] Julie Michelson: Thank you so much for that. That's it's it just allows people, I think, to have so much insight. Listeners. I can tell you right now, if you're saying I don't have fear, we all have fears around stuff. It's are we, you know, it's that? Are we willing to feel the feelings? And, and I would say at first glance, Those who are most uncomfortable [00:07:00] feeling, the feelings will say you know, I, I'm not, I'm not afraid to feel my feelings.
[00:07:04] I'm fine. You know? And that's where really dig, looking into those patterns and motivators is, is key. And we're making it sound so easy, right? Like just like, no, at this side, implore you all like take, take some time and really. Think about those things. And I, I love, you know, we can take something like working.
[00:07:29] Aimie Apigian, MD: Mm-hmm
[00:07:30] Julie Michelson: Which is, can be fantastic if like you said, it's, you're fulfilling a passion and you know, that drive is coming from a healthy place and I'll offer and there's balance or there's oh. Even if, you know, even in that sense, there's a point where it gets taken too far and that's when you say, oh, what am I avoiding by.
[00:07:51] Aimie Apigian, MD: Mm-hmm
[00:07:51] Julie Michelson: Diving into this. And, and I know you well enough to know you work really hard
[00:07:58] Aimie Apigian, MD: I do.
[00:07:58] Julie Michelson: and but I also see [00:08:00] your passion
[00:08:01] Aimie Apigian, MD: Right.
[00:08:02] Julie Michelson: and, and I love it. I am full disclosure for the listeners. We recorded a part too, for you guys before. And we were unable to air it due to some audio issues. And so I'm bringing that up because I really wanna make sure we talk about, I thought it was so good.
[00:08:21] I wanna make sure we hit some of those points and we had this amazing conversation about. Us in, you know, looking at us in ourselves, in relationship. And you were sharing insight with us into overs responders and under responders. And I I'd love to, to touch on that again, because there to me is so much value in that conversation.
[00:08:50] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah, and this is where we can get programmed from earlier life experiences. And then it just becomes our biology in how we respond or [00:09:00] react to experiences moving forward. And whether this pattern got wired in, in early childhood it's quite likely because those are the patterns that stick with us the most.
[00:09:12] And most of those patterns actually got wired in before we had language to even. Express it understand it. And so it literally just has always been how we are. And so we think it is who we are, and that is simply not true. So when we look at the nervous system, when we look at how it should respond in a stress and we actually see that a stress response is intended to give us the energy, the power, the motivation to take action in our lives in a big way. And it's this ability to take action in the moment when something truly is threatening, who we are, our best self, our purpose in [00:10:00] life, anything that is truly out of alignment with who we are and going to disrupt our ability to be who we are. And yet what we see is that many people have a altered stress response where they actually are going to overreact or underreact.
[00:10:23] And for those people who overreact. This is, you know, the person who gets that activation from the stress response of a possible, you know, anything that bothers them, we can call it a trigger. We don't have to call it a trigger, whatever, whatever it is that CRAs that initial activation. And literally Julie, they are not able to calm their system. And so they stay in that activated state and what's happening is that the amygdala, which is the there's actually two in our brain on each side. And that's [00:11:00] intended to take in sensory information for us, for the amygdalas, really, to be able to make quick decisions about is what does this mean? What does this mean? Okay. I just heard a, a, a dog bark, but what does that mean? Does that mean I'm in danger? Does that mean that. Oh, the neighbor's dog barked. It's probably the mailman, right? Like what does that mean? The meaning of the different sensations and whether that's something we hear, whether we see whether we taste, whether we smell, whatever the sensation is, the amygdala makes a rapid millisecond decision of what does that mean? Which is awesome because if I am looking at an oncoming bus, I don't have, I don't have seconds. To have my body respond. I only have milliseconds. And so the [00:12:00] amygdala that's its job is in a millisecond it's like 20 milliseconds, less than even one second. Your amygdala has already decided for everything that you hear, see, smell, taste, whe what's the meaning of that.
[00:12:14] And if that's D. Now, what should happen is that those messages also then get routed through the hypothalamus and the orbital frontal cortex, which is kinda like that area of your brain. That's just behind your eyebrows. And it informs the, the amygdala, if this is significant for right now or not. Is this, is this present moment stuff or is this past stuff
[00:12:43] Julie Michelson: right.
[00:12:44] Aimie Apigian, MD: Exactly. Did, is that what it meant in the past, but no longer in the present moment or no. Is that still the meaning in the present moment? And when we see over reactors, we don't see that check and balance coming in from the frontal cortex. [00:13:00] We just see that Ooh, response and the meaning for them is always present moment.
[00:13:07] Julie Michelson: Mm,
[00:13:08] Aimie Apigian, MD: And they're, they don't have the skills to actually regulate their own system and have that check and balance and, and bring it back down into what we would call parasympathetic state.
[00:13:20] Julie Michelson: I'm giggling because I'm an equestrian and we often say, Riding a horse, especially the kinds of horses I ride. It's like riding a 1200 pound amygdala without a check. And, you know, it's, a plastic bag might as well be a lion. You know, it really is fascinating. And has given me this kind of understanding of like, oh, this, I see how this serves them in the wild.
[00:13:48] Right. but not so fun. When, when you're on their back. And, but that's something that anyone who knows at least sport horses well knows that kind [00:14:00] of, and that, and that's what it is. It's like, that's great that they can take all that in, but they don't have that second piece of, you know, is this important right now?
[00:14:12] Aimie Apigian, MD: Exactly. And for them in the wild, like everything is right
[00:14:15] Julie Michelson: It's all important. Yeah.
[00:14:17] Aimie Apigian, MD: exactly. So, so that's kind of what differentiates humans and our cortex, our cortical brain and its ability to influence. But for someone who has. Has had different life experiences where they didn't have the co-regulation, they didn't have that ability to settle their system and to have that check and balance, it's a runaway train
[00:14:47] Julie Michelson: Yeah.
[00:14:48] Aimie Apigian, MD: and, and to be around them or certainly to, to have that system, my goodness, like it you're, you're like a race car.
[00:14:56] Right. And, and you're exhausted. You're spent afterwards because [00:15:00] you just unleashed all of this energy for what. Right. Like for what? So
[00:15:08] Julie Michelson: I wanna bring it, but like we're talking about like everyday things, not, it's not necessarily big life threatening things, the little things that we navigate through the day.
[00:15:22] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yes. And that's really where we get to see these patterns is just the everyday things that happen in our everyday life.
[00:15:30] Julie Michelson: Gotcha.
[00:15:30] Aimie Apigian, MD: we have these people who, because of their life experiences. And most often this is actually a result of early life experiences that they don't, they wouldn't even have conscious memory of.
[00:15:43] And they had experiences of overwhelm
[00:15:49] Julie Michelson: Okay.
[00:15:49] Aimie Apigian, MD: early on. And when. Infants have experiences of overwhelm, whether it's because their tummy hurts or they're hungry or their [00:16:00] diapers wet. And no one comes right away to relieve them of that. The only way that they have to calm themselves down and actually to stay alive is to use what's called the dorsal VA break and it's their emergency break that stops that runaway train. as an infant, they actually have no capacity to go to the kitchen and eat a chocolate. Like they have no capacity to walk away from the situation. They have no other tools available to them other than to go into this kind of collapse, because this is overwhelming and I need to escape somewhere and I escape within myself. And that's what we call the freeze response. And so that freeze response is always going to be an under reaction [00:17:00] because you literally just go into this place of, I can't do anything about it. Like I already, I already know that this is more than what I can handle, but it's just spilled coffee. I know, but it is more than what I can handle.
[00:17:14] Right. And so for the everyday life stuff, they're already on the edge of feeling overwhelmed. and in these small little thing, they're, they're just like, Nope, that's that's too much. And rather than overreact with a lot of energy, they actually go into a lower energy state feeling more of the collapse, more of the burden.
[00:17:36] They even may go into the posture, which is actually really technically the trauma posture and one of shame, which is just that collapse, collapse of their spine. They kind of collapse their ribs kind of come over their bellies, their, their neck. Curves. There's all these musculature and tissue changes that happen with this type of under reaction.
[00:17:59] [00:18:00] And this is programmed from such early on in life where, because they did not have any other mechanism, then they just always relied on this under reaction in order to survive.
[00:18:16] Julie Michelson: and, and, and so fascinating to me that every time we talk about this topic, different people in my life come up, in different categories. I like, oh, oh which is fun. It's not always the same people. So we're talking about, you mentioned, you know, these are patterns that are created before we can remember, right.
[00:18:37] This is, so we get that story. This is just how I am. This is because that's how it seems. Can we change it?
[00:18:47] Aimie Apigian, MD: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And seriously, in my programs, Julie, I am working with 80 year olds. I think the, the oldest person that's gone through my course is 92. So literally as, [00:19:00] as long as you are still breathing, we can still tap into the power of neuroplasticity. And change these patterns that you have always thought is just who you are.
[00:19:11] And they actually are adaptations to your life experiences that served you at the time. And now hold you back.
[00:19:20] Julie Michelson: So, and I love that. Say that part again, because we, we tend to be so critical of ourselves and it is important to remember that these, these patterns did serve us in some way at some time that,
[00:19:35] Aimie Apigian, MD: absolutely. And this is the brilliance, the wisdom of the body that it doesn't need you to know this stuff, to be able to utilize the built in systems for you to survive really, really hard, overwhelming things. And so we have these systems built in and we have the three states of our nervous system.
[00:19:57] These are, they, they come built in. Now I [00:20:00] do have to qualify that though, Julie, because when an infant is born again, like they actually don't have their Their vental vagal system. Well enough built for them to utilize that they have to get that through co-regulation and I'm gonna say with their biological mom, they can get it from other adults, but the, the most settling calming co-regulation is going to come from the person that they've just spent nine months growing in her belly.
[00:20:28] Julie Michelson: Which
[00:20:29] Aimie Apigian, MD: So, right. you
[00:20:31] Julie Michelson: per, I mean, it just makes person sense. Right?
[00:20:33] Aimie Apigian, MD: yeah. And, and we see that physiologically. And so for, for infants then, especially in our modern world where infants, like once they're born, it's almost like they are expected to be independent. They're expected to sleep by themselves. They're expected to, you know, do all these things by themselves and that's actually not.
[00:20:55] Respecting the biology and where they're at in their, [00:21:00] in their growth period. And so we look at an infant and it's like, yeah, these systems, if you were overwhelmed as an infant and you had to use this emergency break, that's called the dorsal vagal response that served you really powerfully at that time.
[00:21:19] In fact, it prevented you from having a heart attack as a baby. It prevented you from blowing out your metabolism. It prevented all of these really bad things because you used. That system, without even knowing what it was at the time. Like, it just it's what happens. It's what, it's what your body will do automatically.
[00:21:40] And it's the downstream effects of that. That then as an adult, we're like, Ugh, I hate that. I do that. I hate that my body does this. I feel like my body betrays me because every time I go to have this, you know, big expansion in my life, I get sick. I get a flare up. I I self sabotage. These are the things that are the natural [00:22:00] results of having used that dorsal Vaal break.
[00:22:03] And yet at the time, when we first had to use them, they literally were what helped us survive.
[00:22:11] Julie Michelson: Thank you for going further into that. Because I, I do think, especially by the time people find me or find you, you know, they're really good at beating themselves. And, and so it's like, okay, well wait, actually pat yourself on the back. Cause you survived as an infant because you know that, that you were able to do that and now not serving you anymore, we can change.
[00:22:36] Aimie Apigian, MD: Exactly. Like what you've done up until now has got you to this point. And unless you want more of what you're experiencing now, right. We do need to change those things, but it's what got you here to this place. It's, what's been able to get you through life and hard times, so we'll have gratitude for it and [00:23:00] not stay here either.
[00:23:01] Julie Michelson: yeah. I love that. I really do love that. And again, we're talking about. It kind of sounds extreme. And, and when we're talking about it in auto immunity, and we talk about the freeze and, you know, you mentioned the flare, like, ah, I, you know, EV you just you're gear up and you get knocked down. I, I think of that as, as kind of an extreme, and we can backtrack that to what we, you know, again, back to that, it's just how I am the personality pattern.
[00:23:32] I, I think that often the unders responders are simply considered really easygoing by he going by those around them.
[00:23:43] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah, and it is true because their body naturally will take them to this really passive place. And, and they do feel overpowered. They do feel like things are out of control. They can feel like life is happening to them [00:24:00] because their system just continues to take them to that place. Where, where they're, they're not.
[00:24:07] Even given that opportunity and that time to feel the adrenaline, to feel the cortisol and the benefits that those bring to us during a stress response for these under responders, they feel that initial adrenaline and they've already gone into the, oh, this is too much. And
[00:24:25] Julie Michelson: think of it almost like a turtle, you know, just pulling into the shell, like the, the,
[00:24:30] Aimie Apigian, MD: Mm-hmm
[00:24:30] Julie Michelson: yeah. And I
[00:24:32] Aimie Apigian, MD: without even giving it a chance.
[00:24:33] Julie Michelson: Right, right. I love that you, you just referred to, you know, people hear cortisol or stress response. And because we talk about that so much regarding chronic stress, you know, people think, oh, stress equals bad and cortisol is bad and adrenaline is bad.
[00:24:52] And, and so I love that you just framed that for us, that's energy that is there, you know, to give us [00:25:00] that, that strength and energy to. X Y Z you know? And so, but we don't wanna be control. We don't want it running all the time and, and we don't wanna be controlled by it, but you certainly, you know, will benefit if you're not shrinking away from it all the time.
[00:25:17] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yes exactly. I'm actually leading a group of people through a journey right now on one of the biology of trauma modules on repairing heart shock. Chronic stress and breaking the power of fear in our life. And it's about how do we take what has become chronic stress and get it back to the gift that it is supposed to be of acute stress, adrenaline cortisol.
[00:25:43] Those are gifts. What I actually, I consider the stress response, sacred, sacred.
[00:25:51] Julie Michelson: well, still, first of all, it's the only, it's just like, the horses wouldn't be here. We wouldn't be here without it. And, and [00:26:00] even if you just look at the biology. Of what happens during a stress response? Oh my
[00:26:06] Aimie Apigian, MD: amazing how it helps us.
[00:26:08] Julie Michelson: Incredible.
[00:26:10] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yes. But.
[00:26:12] Julie Michelson: Yeah.
[00:26:12] Aimie Apigian, MD: gone wrong, right? It's gone wrong because of life experiences that have, ah, you know, done, done a number on our nervous system. And so rather than having this gift of stress that is sacred, it's turned into something very chronic and that's, what's damaging and actually the most damaging thing.
[00:26:37] Julie is when our biology goes from sympathetic that adrenaline to the freeze response. And then we come outta the freeze response. We go back up into that high stress that put us there. We fill the adrenaline, we get overwhelmed again. And, and we, we go back, we cycle back and forth between sympathetic and adrenaline [00:27:00] and freeze response and that dorsal vagal response that is much more damaging to our health, to our biology than it actual chronic stresses.
[00:27:09] It's quite fascinating.
[00:27:12] Julie Michelson: That is you lead me to, I, I really wanted to make sure we hit on. This idea, you know, people say, okay, you know, they're talking about stress and chronic stress again, I guess I should meditate or I guess I should
[00:27:28] Aimie Apigian, MD: no, no, no, no, no.
[00:27:30] Julie Michelson: how did I know you were gonna say that? Let's, let's talk about that a little bit in that one of the reasons it's so important to.
[00:27:39] Self-identify am I an overs responder? Am I an unders responder? Not the same techniques and we're depending on where we are in that healing journey. So you know, why isn't you already said it, but I'm gonna, you know, let's, let's start at square one. Why isn't it a good idea for everybody listening to commit and say, okay, that's [00:28:00] it starting today?
[00:28:00] I am going to meditate.
[00:28:03] Aimie Apigian, MD: Meditation can actually be one of the most harmful things that a person can
[00:28:07] Julie Michelson: What, sorry I had
[00:28:10] Aimie Apigian, MD: of the most, one of the
[00:28:11] Julie Michelson: listeners are saying.
[00:28:12] Aimie Apigian, MD: I know, I know
[00:28:14] Julie Michelson: yep.
[00:28:15] Aimie Apigian, MD: it's pretty bold for me to say that in today's world where everybody like, that's the solution, you know, your, your doctor says, go manage your stress, go meditate. And or breathwork breathwork is also one of those actually dangerous practices.
[00:28:29] I teach a master class to my group on the three dangerous practices for those.
[00:28:35] Julie Michelson: third
[00:28:39] Aimie Apigian, MD: You'll have to listen to the masterclass,
[00:28:41] Julie Michelson: Ah, love it. Okay. You got it.
[00:28:43] Aimie Apigian, MD: you come back to meditation. So what happens in, in trauma, especially with these under reactors, is that the reason, one of the mechanisms by which we survive is by disconnecting from our body.
[00:28:58] Julie Michelson: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:58] Aimie Apigian, MD: and we [00:29:00] act, I mean, there's a whole thing to it.
[00:29:01] There's bracing patterns that cut off the messages coming up, our vagus nerve from our gut to our brain stem. There's all these, I mean, they're biological mechanisms for, for disconnecting and it can make us feel like we're a bit Numb might be a good word. We're we're going through life. That's just kind of like on automatic, we're not having the joy, but you know, we've got this baseline, anxiety and depression, but we're just kind of, you know, flat
[00:29:33] Julie Michelson: Hosting.
[00:29:34] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah. Coasting. Yeah. Just going through the motions, right. It's just, what, what day is today? What month? What year? Because it all kind of looks the same. So there's all these different ways in which we actually live disconnected from our bodies without even realizing it. And so many of the people who've taken my 21 day journey, which is where I start everybody with the essential sequence that will safely start them on the path to [00:30:00] addressing storage trauma in the body.
[00:30:01] That's what they tell me, Julie, I had no idea. I was actually disconnected from my body. They actually don't know that most of the time they don't feel their feet. And for your audience, you know, just like, kind of like check in, like, do you feel your feet right now? Or do you mostly feel your upper body?
[00:30:20] There's a reason why we don't tend to feel our legs and our feet as much. There's a whole science behind that. So just starting to become aware of Ooh, I actually am disconnected. And what happens is that with a lot of meditation practices, it actually reinforces the disconnect between the mind and what the mind is doing and what the body is doing.
[00:30:42] And they are already disconnected. The mind is already frustrated with the body. The body feels like the mind's not listening to it at all, which is true. And so they're already kind of in this tension and a lot of meditation practices are just gonna further that disconnect by taking your mind somewhere.
[00:30:58] Visualize [00:31:00] this, think about this, say these affirmations and it's not actually. Connecting doing this or doing it safely. Right? So some meditation practices will actually have you connect too much, too fast with your body and it's not ready for that. It, that doesn't feel safe. So then you're gonna have a flare up with your autoimmune symptoms.
[00:31:20] So there's, there's a fine line to walk between what is actually. Safe. And what is the right order to bring in some of these different modalities? Breathwork would be the same thing where there's a reason why you are breathing shallow and for you to come in and say, oh, like, this is our mind talking, right?
[00:31:40] Like, oh no, no, no, this is not okay. Lungs. You gotta breathe deeper. Let's take some deep breaths. Ooh, that was great. Now let's take a deeper breath and now let's hold that deeper breath. Your, your lungs, your body is. No, like we have come to this place for a reason and you're [00:32:00] overriding us and you're taking us into a place that feels unsafe to go.
[00:32:03] And so, again, since you're not listening, I'll just communicate to you through a flare up of my autoimmune symptoms. That this has not felt safe to me and many people aren't seeing their physical health symptoms as messages of their body feeling unsafe. And so that's, that's exactly actually why I designed the programs that I did is I, I saw this in my own journey.
[00:32:28] And then in working with patients is that there has not been. This clear path forward to addressing these issues. We're told to go talk to a therapist and we either know that that doesn't work, or we don't wanna do that. Right. We don't wanna dig up the path. Good. Awesome. Let's not, let's not, that's actually not where we start.
[00:32:49] A stories are important because that's how our brain has made meaning of them, but that's actually not where we start Julie. And if we start there, studies show that we're actually. Putting [00:33:00] ourselves back into that same stress and trauma response as if we're going through that experience all over again in the present moment.
[00:33:07] Why would we do that to ourselves? Right? No, like our stress response should be sacred. We should guard it. We should protect it and only use it when we really need to use it, not going back into our past and digging up stuff. So there's, there's a right way in order to do things. And then there are these practices that if used in the right way at the right time, they're amazing tools, but we just have to be using them at the right time and in the right way.
[00:33:36] Julie Michelson: Wow. That is Soma. There's so many, like if someone just flips this on and here's one of those sentences, that? There's a gift. And, and so many, you just, you bring us such a wealth of knowledge that that's so new. It's such a new perspective and innovative, and it's all science based. And I know it works.
[00:33:58] And this idea of like, [00:34:00] wait, I, I had to, my inner Jersey wise ass almost just came out cause I was gonna be like, wait, are you saying we can heal without reliving our trauma? cause so often we're told we can't do that.
[00:34:13] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah, no, that's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, reliving our trauma is actually really harmful, right? Like, yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm I got this message the other day. I'm I'm seeing if I can pull it up cuz I read it and it just kind of shocked me. This is from actually one of my colleagues, one of, one of the training physicians for the Institute for functional medicine. And she texted this to our whole group and I, I, they came outta the blue for me and she says, giving Amy kudos. I have a mold patient who has done Gupta's work and D N RS. So nervous system reregulation and it is the somatic module with Dr. Amy that has moved the needle for her the most. And it's [00:35:00] allowed all of my protocols for the mold to work the best.
[00:35:05] Julie Michelson: Woo. I have goosebumps.
[00:35:07] Aimie Apigian, MD: Right. Like there's,
[00:35:08] Julie Michelson: you do this
[00:35:09] Aimie Apigian, MD: this is why I do this because like, there is a, an essential sequence. There is a right way. There is a right order. It doesn't need to be confusing. And there's a lot of, a lot of conflicting information about out there about how to, how to just how to work with your past, how to, how to be able to truly let go in a healthy way of your past so you can move forward and it doesn't need to be confusing.
[00:35:31] And when we do. In a way that honors the body and how it got stored into the body and just reverse engineer that it, it truly is magical. And it's so exciting to see that when that, when people do that, that the physical health. Right. Like the, the mold protocols, the line protocols, the autoimmune protocols.
[00:35:53] They actually work better when they're doing this very well designed [00:36:00] kind of trauma healing path forward.
[00:36:02] Julie Michelson: Sure because then the body can heal. It's safe for the body to heal.
[00:36:07] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah.
[00:36:07] Julie Michelson: That's that's a beautiful thing. And I, I wanna add, you said it, but I wanna highlight. Depending on where we are in our healing journey. I mean, someone may, you know, pick up an article or a friend did some kind of work or some meditation or some class, and, you know, it was, it, it worked for them where they were at that moment to move their needle.
[00:36:33] And, and so. You know, I, I wanna clarify for listeners, you you're praising all of those modalities, but it's really important to know what order and when it's safe to use them. And, and that's where we get the best results.
[00:36:50] Aimie Apigian, MD: Mm-hmm cause it's not. Just like it won't, they won't work as well. Like some of them can truly be harmful if used in the wrong order.
[00:36:59] Julie Michelson: Yeah. And I, I [00:37:00] have seen that. I, I really have. And, and so I, I just love, I, I say it's, it's, it's not even so much that, well, there is some bad information too, but just when it comes to trauma and healing trauma and releasing trauma, it's a lot of old. Misinformation that that was well intentioned and but there's newer science and Dr.
[00:37:24] Amy is sharing it with us.
[00:37:27] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah. And, and that's also why I love putting on, you know, like my series around the biology of trauma, cuz it really does give people a new understanding of themselves that allows them to have new tools.
[00:37:41] Julie Michelson: yeah.
[00:37:42] Aimie Apigian, MD: And this biology piece has been truly what many have described and told me as the missing piece that has really moved the dial for them in their healing journey and allowed them to understand themselves, see themselves in a whole new way and has [00:38:00] yeah.
[00:38:00] Opened up a whole new level of healing for themselves.
[00:38:04] Julie Michelson: Which is amazing. And as you said, I mean, it is literally never too late. I I'm so excited for your 92 year old participant who and the people in, in their lives, because you know, all of this work makes us not only healthier, more joyful, but this makes us better humans too. When we get to, we get that ripple effect going.
[00:38:28] Aimie Apigian, MD: well, it really allows us. Move into truly who we really are
[00:38:34] Julie Michelson: right. And not the story of
[00:38:36] Aimie Apigian, MD: Not, not the story, not how we've adapted, not how we've, you know, had to guard ourselves, brace ourselves in order to get through things. Cuz that's, you know, having our guards up it, that's not our authentic self.
[00:38:49] That's not our true self. So it really allows us to even discover who am I underneath all of this.
[00:38:58] Julie Michelson: Which is exciting. [00:39:00] It's so exciting. Yeah. I love it. I love it. I, I cannot encourage listeners enough to join the program, to follow your work to, I know you have a summit coming up to, to listen to the summit and, and just it crack that door open. And if you're listening and you think that this does not apply to you, then this is exactly for you, is what I will say for that.
[00:39:27] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah, there's a number of talks that come to mind. That would be fantastic for your audience. In fact, I'll, I'll send you over a list, but top of mind, I'm thinking of Dr. Vincent TTI. He is the founder of the adverse childhood experiences. And that would be an amazing talk for people to listen to. I have Dr.
[00:39:46] Tom Obrien speaking on autoimmunity and Robin Carmo. She has written two fantastic books. One is called scared, sick, the role of childhood trauma and adult disease. So there's just [00:40:00] a lot of, a lot of richness for those who may be struggling with chronic illness autoimmune specifically, and they, they would get a lot of value.
[00:40:09] Julie Michelson: Amazing resource. I, again, if you're not gonna take advantage, you're silly or you're not ready yet, but Dr. Amy is sharing so much gold with everybody and, and everything you do, every program, every summit. I always get so much out of it and I always get excited for the resources that you make available for everybody who wants to heal or improve or expand and grow.
[00:40:33] Aimie Apigian, MD: Whatever stage they are in the journey. Yeah. There's room for all of us.
[00:40:38] Julie Michelson: I love it. I always ask for one step listeners can take. And so what is one thing people can do, you know, starting today other than signing up for the program or the summit, or maybe that is the one step. And, and I, I think it's a smart step. But what's something everyone. can start [00:41:00] doing to, I'm not even gonna finish the sentence to do to whatever you think they should.
[00:41:06] Aimie Apigian, MD: Yeah, so definitely besides taking that action to go register for the summit, I would ask the question, why, why am I doing this? If you're headed to the kitchen? Why, why, why am I doing this? If you're headed for the movies, the videos, the social media. If you're what, whatever it is, right. Just what's. Why, why am I doing this?
[00:41:30] And just start to be able to ask those curiosity questions, not the judgemental questions, the curiosity questions, so that we can even become aware of. Do I have patterns that I'm not even aware of?
[00:41:44] Julie Michelson: The answer's. Yes,
[00:41:49] Aimie Apigian, MD: the answer is yes. And can I, can I learn what those patterns are? Right.
[00:41:54] Julie Michelson: I love that and, and hold it lightly really think of it as I love the [00:42:00] curiosity piece, it's an exploration and we become masterful at not seeing, not feeling, not noticing. And so, you know, I guarantee you that other people are aware of your patterns more than you are . This is human nature.
[00:42:18] Aimie Apigian, MD: And yet I did not ask you to, to go ask your family members or your friends.
[00:42:21] Julie Michelson: Right. No, no.
[00:42:23] Aimie Apigian, MD: for right now for right now,
[00:42:25] Julie Michelson: yeah.
[00:42:25] Aimie Apigian, MD: just be an internal question of why do I think, why might I be doing this? Yeah, we'll we'll we'll reserve those conversations for later on in your healing
[00:42:36] Julie Michelson: Exactly that is, it's a graduate level healing at that point.
[00:42:43] Dr. Amy, thank you so much for coming back and sharing more with us on this important topic. Again, I've said I am such a huge fan and the contribution you're making is just truly remarkable and I [00:43:00] needed, I needed another half hour with you to, to bring more for the listeners.
[00:43:04] Aimie Apigian, MD: Good. Well, I hope that someone heard exactly what they needed to hear today.
[00:43:09] Julie Michelson: I do as well for everyone listening. Remember, you can get the show notes and transcripts by visiting inspired living.show and those links to the summit and the programs and everywhere that you can find. Dr. Amy will be in there. I hope you had a great time and enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I will see you next week.
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My Guest For This Episode
Connect with Dr. Aimie Apigian
Dr. Aimie Apigian
Preventive and Addiction Medicine
Dr. Aimie is a Double Board-Certified Medical Physician in both Preventive and Addiction Medicine and holds Double Masters Degrees in Biochemistry and in Public Health.
She is the leading medical expert on addressing stored trauma in the body through her signature model and methodology, The Biology of Trauma™: a new lens that courageously uplevels the old methods of trauma work and medicine by reverse-engineering trauma's effects on the nervous system and body on a cellular level.
Dr. Aimie specializes in trauma, attachment and addictions after having personal experience in foster parenting, adopting and then having her own health issues that were a result of childhood and life experiences.
In addition to her medical studies that have included Functional Medicine Certification, she has sought out trauma therapy training since 2015.
She is the leading medical expert on addressing stored trauma in the body through her signature model and methodology, The Biology of Trauma™: a new lens that courageously uplevels the old methods of trauma work and medicine by reverse-engineering trauma's effects on the nervous system and body on a cellular level.
Dr. Aimie specializes in trauma, attachment and addictions after having personal experience in foster parenting, adopting and then having her own health issues that were a result of childhood and life experiences.
In addition to her medical studies that have included Functional Medicine Certification, she has sought out trauma therapy training since 2015.
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