Episode 144
Jaime Hartman:
Critical Diet and Lifestyle Modifications for Autoimmune Wellness
In this episode I was joined by Jamie Hartman, a pioneer in the field of autoimmune wellness. She shared her personal journey with Crohn's disease and how she transformed her health through the autoimmune protocol (AIP).
We delved into the evolution of the AIP diet, including the traditional approach and the new, less restrictive modified plan. We also touched on the importance of lifestyle factors in managing autoimmune conditions and debunked some common myths surrounding AIP.
First Aired on: Jun 17, 2024
Episode 144
Jaime Hartman:
Critical Diet and Lifestyle Modifications for Autoimmune Wellness
In this episode I was joined by Jamie Hartman, a pioneer in the field of autoimmune wellness. She shared her personal journey with Crohn's disease and how she transformed her health through the autoimmune protocol (AIP).
We delved into the evolution of the AIP diet, including the traditional approach and the new, less restrictive modified plan. We also touched on the importance of lifestyle factors in managing autoimmune conditions and debunked some common myths surrounding AIP.
First Aired on: Jun 17, 2024
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
Jamie’s Journey with Autoimmune Disease
- Diagnosed with Crohn’s at 19
- Initial denial and compartmentalization of her condition
- A pivotal surgery and the realization that lifestyle changes were necessary
- Transitioning to the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) and eventually AIP
Understanding AIP
- The origins and principles of autoimmune paleo or autoimmune protocol (AIP)
- AIP as a healing framework, not just a diet
The Modified AIP Plan
- The flexibility of the modified AIP plan, with inclusion of rice and ghee
- Exclusions in the modified AIP: cereal grains, dairy (except ghee), nightshades, and common allergens
- Why the modified AIP plan is the starting point for most individuals
- The importance of reintroducing foods to identify personal triggers
AIP Studies and Evidence
- The impact of research on AIP and its acceptance in the medical community
- Outcome differences between having an AIP diet and lifestyle versus just the AIP diet
Lifestyle Factors
- The significance of sleep, stress management, community, and movement on autoimmune health
- Recognizing that overexercising can exacerbate autoimmune symptoms
Myths and Misconceptions about AIP
- Dispelling the belief that AIP requires absolute perfection
- The concept that medication use does not equate to failure in healing
Takeaways and Advice
- Considering your why: defining success on your own terms and not just by medical outcomes
- One step listeners can take today to improve their health: connecting with nature and grounding
Closing Thoughts
- Emphasizing the role of grace in the healing journey
- Reminding listeners that symptoms are a form of communication from the body
Other Resources:
Connect with Jaime Hartman
Watch this interview:
Episode Transcript
(Teaser Intro) [Page//00:00:00]
Jamie Hartman: the key pillars that we want to look at are the same, I think, across all practices, and that is that you need to be sleeping. Managing your stress to the degree that you can, have connection with other people. So having that sense of being part of a community connection with nature is very, very healing as well.
Jamie Hartman: If you are continually in an indoor environment, you're not getting any, exposure to the natural world. And then movement is also an important one.
Jamie Hartman: I think that's important to bring up because people in our society really have internalized the message that like exercise is always good for you and you must do more of it.
Jamie Hartman: And that is not always the case, especially if you have an autoimmune disease, especially if you have an autoimmune disease that you've been diagnosed with at a later point in your life, and you are still trying to exercise the way that you had before.
(Intro Bumper)
[Page//00:01:00] (Episode Intro) ​
[Page//00:02:00]
Julie Michelson: Jamie, welcome to the podcast.
Jamie Hartman: Thanks for having me, Julie.
Julie Michelson: I am so excited for our conversation. I, you know, I just had said to you before I hit record in my head, I thought we already had recorded [Page//00:03:00] this conversation. So it's, it's, um, I'm just really genuinely thrilled about some of the new things going on with AIP, um, and, and really educating the public about that.
Julie Michelson: But first and foremost, Can you share a bit of your journey with us? Um, because you are, or I would consider a pioneer in the field of autoimmune wellness. And, and I think it's important for listeners to, to learn about you.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah, thanks, Julie. Um, my story, like so many of us starts with my own health challenges.
Jamie Hartman: I have Crohn's disease. I was diagnosed when I was just 19 and I honestly coped with that diagnosis simply by trying to compartmentalize it into one slot in my life that I had. didn't affect the rest of them. Um, if I got through the day and [Page//00:04:00] hadn't embarrassed myself, I considered it a success. And that was really the end of it.
Jamie Hartman: Um, and that worked mostly ignoring it for, uh, about a decade, give or take until it just stopped working completely. And I had to have surgery from the scar tissue that had developed over the many years of ignoring my symptoms. Um, and After that surgery, there were some complications and I had a very difficult time kind of coming back to baseline for that.
Jamie Hartman: And after a few more years after that, I finally realized I needed to try to acknowledge my symptoms in a way that incorporated maybe some lifestyle and some diet pieces. So I did some research, eventually stumbled upon Um, a diet called the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, SCD. I'm sure you're familiar with it, probably some of your listeners are as well.
Jamie Hartman: Some are, yeah. And it helped quite a bit, although I found that it, it seemed to kind of impact my, my mental health a lot and started, you know, continuing to [Page//00:05:00] look for other options. And again, stumbling along in the internet at that time, I found my way to what people were calling an autoimmune paleo or an autoimmune Protocol approach.
Jamie Hartman: Switched things to that and immediately started to see even more improvement. And I think at that point, I thought I had it all figured out. Food is the answer. That's it. That's what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. I'm going to actually make it my career. I changed jobs. I went back to school. I became a nutritional therapy practitioner.
Jamie Hartman: And then I launched a business, uh, helping people to do the same thing. An interesting part of that though, is that it was actually when I changed jobs and changed my lifestyle and started to, I went from a job where I had very little control over my work environment and I was traveling a lot and didn't get consistent sleep and had a lot of stress to one where I was working from home, working for myself, doing something I really loved.
Jamie Hartman: Going to bed on a reasonable time every night, waking up in the same place every morning. That's when I actually saw my healing jump [Page//00:06:00] to an even more, uh, even higher level. And so at that point I realized, yeah, at that point I realized, okay, I was onto something when I thought, oh, food is the answer. I've got it all figured out, but I didn't even know how good I could feel until I made these lifestyle changes, which brings us all kind of to full circle that, um, I realize now that.
Jamie Hartman: Food is very important. My lifestyle was probably An even bigger factor for me, and that many of the things that I went through as I was trying to figure out what to do with my diet and make all these big changes and eliminate tons of foods, you know, the lifestyle pieces needed to be managed as well, and it might have been an easier process for me if somehow I had known to adjust those.
Jamie Hartman: earlier on, which is a huge part of what I do when I work with people. So that's my story in a nutshell.
Julie Michelson: Which is amazing. Um, because yeah, you, you already brought up in your own journey, one of my [Page//00:07:00] biggest concerns slash pet peeves with sometimes the preconceived notion about AIP. Um, you know, people think it's just food, and we're going to talk about the food piece for sure, because, um, I think the, the new plan is, is really important for people to understand that it sometimes you don't have to go full AIP and, and, um, really customizing and, and following the modified AIP can get great results as we've seen in the studies.
Julie Michelson: Um, and we'll, we'll get into that piece, but I, I love that, um, you need to bring up because people are so resistant. They're like, just tell me what to eat. And I'm like, Oh, we'll get to that later. Um, yeah, so it's, I love that. That was your experience almost accidentally. Right. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's huge.
Julie Michelson: It's really huge. Um, it, I [Page//00:08:00] can't even, you know, for anybody listening, if you've been just focused on food, this isn't a really important conversation. Although we're going to talk about food as well. Um, let's, in case there, you know, I'm sure there are listeners that don't even know what AIP is. Um, So let's, let's start there kind of, and then I really want to dig into the modified plant.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. So AIP, uh, stands for, depending on how you, how you describe it, either autoimmune paleo or autoimmune protocol. I tend to, uh, default to using the term autoimmune protocol, but I want to acknowledge that the origin of it does come from. The so called paleo diet during that era when that was kind of the new and different way of thinking about how we might eat, eat more like our ancestors cut out the industrial [Page//00:09:00] foods cut out the, you know, the post agricultural era foods, and just eat whole foods.
Jamie Hartman: Mostly vegetables and meats and fish and eliminating grains and many of those things. So, um, that's where it started. And it is an outgrowth of that recognizing that, well, that might, there's a paradigm, a way of eating that was helpful for people wanting to lose weight to, you know, improve their body composition and to, um, maybe improve their health and feel better with some additional.
Jamie Hartman: Attention paid to additional eliminations at that time was the focus primarily. It could also be very helpful for people with autoimmune disease. And so at the time that, that it originated amongst many different people, there's really no one person who has the, you know, the absolute credit for creating it.
Jamie Hartman: Um, you know, the focus very much was on what foods do we need to cut out? It must work because we're cutting out foods, but I think that even early on, there was an awareness that. When you're cutting out [Page//00:10:00] foods and you're still needing to eat, what you're eating, what is left is probably what's,
Julie Michelson: well,
Jamie Hartman: you know, possibly what's driving the healing as much as what you're avoiding.
Jamie Hartman: And so it's important to acknowledge that it does come from that place of kind of restriction. And so the original AIP said to follow that paleo paradigm, which would be no grains, no legumes, and no dairy, no sugar. What else am I missing? Um, I think that's pretty much it. Seeing vegetables, not seeds. Yeah.
Jamie Hartman: And then on top of that, the autoimmune element of it would say cut out nuts and seeds and, um, nightshades and eggs. Those were the, the additional eliminations that were prescribed. And so many of us who started out using that early on, like myself, you know, we were very focused on the, you know, the elimination.
Jamie Hartman: Right. What are we avoiding? Yeah, right. Yep. And, um, and there wasn't really a lot of understanding at that time too, because it's so [Page//00:11:00] new as to like, well, how long do you need to do this? Is this the way you need to eat for the rest of your life? Um, you know, if you reintroduce foods, are you setting yourself up to have a flare up of your disease at some point?
Jamie Hartman: Are you going to harm your health? You know, we didn't we really didn't know yet. And so research had to be done and people had to have, you know, experience using it in their practice. And we started to understand more and more about what really Needs to be, um, addressed in here and what maybe doesn't so the, you know, the, the original protocol starts there and then reintroductions were always meant to be a part of it.
Jamie Hartman: But again, I think early on, we didn't quite know, like, whether that was a good idea or not. And sure to evolve on that.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And as somebody who has experienced healing, um, uh, it's the reintroductions are the most important part, by the way. Mm-Hmm. , um, , you know that, I know that. I just wanna share that. I know that now.
Julie Michelson: But we didn't know that. Well, [Page//00:12:00] we didn't. And as somebody going through, you know, who kind of self-created her own elimination, way back when, as I, you know, I hadn't heard of a IP, um, or. Yeah. Any of the things I know now, once you are feeling well, you know, there there's part, part of you were saying, you know, is it a good idea or not?
Julie Michelson: But when you're feeling well, you're afraid to rock the boat. Um, and so, yeah, or, and maybe, you know, you do one reintroduction that doesn't go well. You're like, Oh, forget it. I'll just, Stay super, super restricted for the rest of my life. And that's not always ideal either. So, um, and I, I do think I, I too tend to use the word protocol, um, or sometimes I'll even use paleo and protocol, but, um, Because of the importance of the lifestyle stuff, you know, that this is not a diet.
Julie Michelson: This is [Page//00:13:00] not a, um, and that I love that you brought up the reintroductions because I think I meet a lot of people that are, they stay in the elimination phase. for years. And they, they think that that's what there should be doing. So I thank you for, for touching on that part for us. I want to touch on the studies because for me, um, you know, working in functional medicine, it's a funny thing.
Julie Michelson: There aren't a lot of Studies. And so there's resistance, right? The whole point is we want to bridge. Like I want everybody who goes to a GI doctor with the kinds of issues you were having for the, I want those doctors to talk about food or even just ask, you know, what are you eating? Do you sleep? You know, crazy stuff.
Julie Michelson: Um, and, and so it's, it's tough to bridge without studies. So let's talk a little bit about the studies that have gone on in the past few years, because for me, [Page//00:14:00] that's been really exciting. I know it works. I see it all the time. Um, but, but it's nice to be able to, to show people, you know, okay, you wanted a scientific study.
Julie Michelson: Here you go.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah, there, there, there have been some studies done what's exciting about the studies, and I can tell you that, you know, and tell your listeners that they've been done in a couple specific diseases because you have to have some kind of criteria for like who's going to be in your study group, you know, so the first one was an IBD focused study so Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, and then the second one that we have consulted on was one with people who had a diagnosis of Hashimoto's thyroiditis.
Jamie Hartman: Okay. so much. But that said, because people often know, well, is it going to work for my condition? You know, we, we haven't studied every single condition out there. True. But we can extrapolate a lot from that. And in these studies, what has been done is that the, the, um, study participants were not just given the diet.
Jamie Hartman: They weren't just told, here's your list [Page//00:15:00] of foods, or here are your meals prepared for you, or, you know, any of that. It was, Let's gradually transition your diet from wherever you are currently and, and provide you with a lot of support along the way. So they were, they were working with a coach, qualified AIP, certified coach, and medical professionals along the way.
Jamie Hartman: And each week they were instructed to examine their current diet and remove and add. You know, remove an ad every single week and the beautiful thing about that was that the end results showed us when they started doing testing along the way throughout that process that they were the people that were going to see results.
Jamie Hartman: We're already seeing it before they'd even completed that full elimination, which tells us that the intuition a lot of us had earlier that we didn't need to be this restricted was correct.
Julie Michelson: Yeah, which is so exciting, [Page//00:16:00] right? Because then if you, I do have a lot of clients who come in and they just want to jump.
Julie Michelson: To full elimination. Um, and a few years ago, you know, it was, I was feeling them out for what works better for them. Right. And now I really do encourage people to work towards so that, you know, they're not avoiding stuff. They don't have to be avoiding. Um, and I just, I think it's so fun. I want to just second what you said about, you know, these studies were for particular because that's how you have to do with study.
Julie Michelson: And you know, and I know from working with all kinds of autoimmunity that the approach, like you said, if it's going to work, is going to work, you know, regardless of diagnosis, because the diagnosis is, I don't want to say doesn't matter in that sense, you know, but, But it's the same. The process is the same.
Julie Michelson: It's just how is it showing up in the body? And so, [Page//00:17:00] um, healing, you know, healing is healing. Uh, I love, I love that. So let's talk about the difference. We're less restrictive now. If you choose to do the modified plan, um, what are the big foods then? What are, what are, you know, what's included on the, or excluded, I guess, on the modified plan.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Yes.
Jamie Hartman: So again, Think about what you're, what a person's going to eat when they're following AIP, whether they're doing the original one that, you know, I started out in or the modified protocol is going to be a lot of variety of vegetables, fruits, healthy meats, fish, you know, these are still going to be the core of what they're going to eat.
Jamie Hartman: Hopefully be filling their plate and their meals with because that's where we know they're going to get lots of healing power. What are you going to exclude during the elimination phase? And again, remembering, even before I start to describe this for all your listeners, that this is still temporary, you know, we're still going to have reintroductions at some point here, but phase to start the elimination phase, which we're following the modified AIP plan.[Page//00:18:00]
Jamie Hartman: You're going to be eliminating the cereal grains. So that's going to eliminate anything that contains gluten, but also the other grains like corn and oats. And there's one exception in there. If you feel like you are going to do well with rice, maybe somebody who has higher energy needs, or it's a culturally important food for them.
Jamie Hartman: We know that rice is really pretty low in terms of that reactivity scale, so they could include rice. But other than that, all the big cereal grains are going to be excluded to start with. Also dairy, so that whole category of dairy would be excluded to start with. One exception there would be that if somebody felt like they would do well, again, if it's culturally important to them, perhaps they could use ghee as part of one of their healthy fats that they include.
Jamie Hartman: That's an option. You could decide one way or the other on that, see how your body does with it. And then you're going to exclude nightshades. Um, that's a category of vegetables and fruits that, um, is pretty broad and it [Page//00:19:00] includes the big ones that most people eat in their diet are tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, also eggplants.
Jamie Hartman: Ashwagandha is a nightshade and that's an interesting one for people who work in functional medicine because a lot of folks, you know, are taking it as a supplement and when you're going to do the AIP protocol, you want to be looking for an alternative to that. If you didn't, if your practitioner didn't think that the benefit of it outweighed the potential reactive potential for reactivity to it, and then common allergens.
Jamie Hartman: So with that category we would exclude soy, we would exclude nuts, we would exclude peanuts and eggs. So that leaves somebody still to be able to consume the big difference between the modified AIP and the AIP, the AIP classic, we're calling it core AIP now, is going to be one of the biggest areas are going to be legumes.
Jamie Hartman: So in, if you're following the modified AIP, you would still be encouraged to consume those good gut heal, gut, [Page//00:20:00] you know, fiber rich foods like, um, lentils, chickpeas. other legumes that can be really helpful for budget reasons as well as providing some nutrients that are much needed for people. And also seeds are no longer excluded.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. Seeds are the other big category that's not, not excluded in, in the modified AIP, but is excluded in the core AIP. And that opens up the door now for people who get really excited to hear this news. They've heard about AIP before, and they said, I can't do that because it says I have to give up. My coffee and my chocolate.
Julie Michelson: Yeah, coffee, chocolate, pepper.
Jamie Hartman: Which we've always historically excluded because those are seeds. People think of them as seeds, but they actually are. Right. Well, our understanding now that we've learned over the years of using this and the research is that those are not big immune triggers for people.
Jamie Hartman: And so there might be other reasons that you would avoid [Page//00:21:00] or eliminate or reduce your coffee or your chocolate intake, but not because they're seeds anymore. Right. So it becomes much more personalized.
Julie Michelson: Yeah, which is, which is wonderful because I love, you know, it is true. Don't mess with people's coffee, you know, if, if you're a coffee drinker, um, but coffee is one of those things that is always worth experimenting with for different reasons.
Julie Michelson: Like you said, not, not necessarily an immune trigger, but, but definitely can. Can be troublesome for people, even if they don't want to admit it. So, um, but often if you're moving to even modified AIP, if you're somebody who drinks your coffee light and sweet, we're going to mess with your coffee anyway. So
Jamie Hartman: yes, we are.
Julie Michelson: And so you may want to pause the coffee, but, but now you're, you're in the driver's seat a little bit more, which is, which is lovely. I think, um, I don't know. It really, I, anything we can do. The empowerment and, and really [Page//00:22:00] just learning to listen to our body, I think is, is important. With that being said, how, how does one determine like, okay, Do you know, should I do modified?
Julie Michelson: Should I do classic? Should I start modified? If that's not working, move on. Like what is your approach that you're sharing with people?
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. For the vast majority of people, the modified AIP. Protocol is the place to start. Okay. Um, that, that really is what our best practices and our evidence and our understanding of the research is saying that for the vast majority of people, that's the place to start.
Jamie Hartman: Obviously, if you have known food allergies or sensitivities, You continue to avoid those things that should go without saying, but I think it's worth saying, you know, again, because it's important. Um, and, and then the, the guidance is the same that, you know, you're going to plan on following the elimination phase for a minimum of 30 days.
Jamie Hartman: If you start feeling better even [Page//00:23:00] sooner, that's great, but we still like you to stick it out for 30 days so you're going to get that really kind of optimal feeling of wellness. And you might extend that out to perhaps up to 90 days before you start thinking about reintroductions. And reintroductions begin when you are starting to see some measurable improvement in your symptoms.
Julie Michelson: Yeah,
Jamie Hartman: not if you not waiting until you never have a bad day till it's perfect until you have zero symptoms and everything's perfect and you're in complete remission because let's like let's be honest that's not really life you know there are other factors involved in life but once you're feeling like things are in the right direction measurable improvement in your symptoms it's now time to start thinking about type Testing some of those excluded foods because you don't need to avoid all of them forever in order to feel your best.
Julie Michelson: Wait, say that one more time.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah, you
Julie Michelson: don't.
Jamie Hartman: You
Julie Michelson: really don't. I promise we're both here with personal and professional experience. It doesn't need to be [Page//00:24:00] lifelong. And what about the people that, that Which I think will lead perfectly, you know, kind of circle back to my pet peeve. Um, the, the people that are like, I have done, you know, classic full AIP elimination.
Julie Michelson: I've been doing it for two years and I really still don't feel better.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: What are they missing?
Jamie Hartman: Something, something else is, is going on and what it could be is a huge array of things. It may be diet related. It may be that you're, you're missing something. You know, there's some deficiency in your diet, but it also very likely could be some kind of a lifestyle factor, you know, where you're, you know, we want to make sure we're paying attention to those.
Jamie Hartman: The, the key pillars that we want to look at are the same, I think, across all practices, and that is that you need to be sleeping. You need to be You know, managing your stress to the degree that you can, um, you need to have connection with other people. So having that sense of [Page//00:25:00] being part of a community connection with nature is very, very healing as well.
Jamie Hartman: If you are continually in an indoor environment, you're not getting any, you know, exposure to the natural world. That. Maybe hindering your progress. And then movement is also an important one. I think that's important to bring up because people in our society really have internalized the message that like exercise is always good for you and you must do more of it.
Jamie Hartman: And that is not always the case, especially if you have an autoimmune disease, especially if you have an autoimmune disease that you've been diagnosed with at a later point in your life, and you are still trying to exercise the way that you had before.
Julie Michelson: That was me. Although. Not even later in life. I was early 30s, but it was, and I see this, I'm sure you see this all the time too.
Julie Michelson: It's like, it's the one, I'm not going to give this piece up to my disease, my diagnosis, my whatever, um, and not realizing that we are just driving inflammation by overexercising with autoimmunity. I mean, it's a, it's [Page//00:26:00] a, it's really common.
Jamie Hartman: It is. Yeah. It's something I see a lot in my practice because I do get a lot of those people like you just described to come to me and say, I've been doing AIP for two years and I'm not feeling better.
Jamie Hartman: And I heard you're the expert on AIP and I want you to tell me what else do I need to eliminate?
Julie Michelson: Yeah. I'm a triathlete and AIP is not working. It's like, yeah.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. So there are, there are definitely, you know, A lot of other things to look at. And then, of course, I don't want to exclude also the possibility that there could be something that needs some medical attention, whether it's from a conventional doctor or a functional medicine doctor or some other kind of practitioner, you know, we, we can't neglect to consider that that is part of it.
Jamie Hartman: It is important to, to use all those tools. Um, you know, I talked about my story briefly and how I, you know, try to ignore my symptoms and I, um, you know, didn't ignore them. And then I, the, another piece of that is that [Page//00:27:00] I had medical care and I had to find the medication that worked the best for me. Um, having no medication didn't work medication without any diet.
Jamie Hartman: And lifestyle attention didn't work. Um, and I needed to have the right medication and the right attention to diet and lifestyle. So yeah, that's important to to acknowledge.
Julie Michelson: It is so important. And it's never I mean, we didn't, uh, We've been saying it in all kinds of different ways, but it's never one thing.
Julie Michelson: It's not just diet. Um, I, I have a, a client that actually with, uh, ulcerative colitis who, you know, his doctors told him, which is true. Not the way they meant it. But it's true. Um, you didn't eat your way into this disease. You're not going to eat your way out of this disease to a point. Yes. You know, I'm like, you know, no, the food isn't what caught, you know, isn't here's the one cause, right?
Julie Michelson: It's not. Gluten is not, um, it's a piece [Page//00:28:00] of the puzzle and, and we're whole humans. And so, um, and circling back to that, that's why I use the word protocol because we, you know, we need optimized sleep on consistent schedules. We need the right movement. Not sitting on the couch all day and not over exercising and driving inflammation.
Julie Michelson: Um, you know, we need to be managing toxins. We like, we need all of that. Um, and, and, you know, so I love that you brought up, you know, don't discount medical support. Um, it's part of it. This is all, it's all part of it. Um, and the relationships, I mean, the, the, What went on, you know, in the early 2020s, um, you know, is it just drove numbers, you know, people were disconnected, people weren't, you know, hugging and touching and, and, um, and so it is, [Page//00:29:00] it's all really, really important though.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. And I think, you know, just to add on to the point about everything being important, it's also important to remember that what your vision of success with your health is is going to vary. And so many people come into something like AIP, thinking that there's like one clear outcome that they're aiming for, and that might be full remission, or it might be getting off all their medications.
Jamie Hartman: And, and that is it is potentially what's going to happen, perhaps. Right. But the real question to ask yourself is, you know, what is it for? What is the purpose of this? What is your, what is your best health going to give you? And why do you want it so badly? Keep that in mind and accept that it's not going to be like a perfect, like, it's not like going to your doctor and getting a perfect report card.
Jamie Hartman: That's not success. Right. That's just. They're gonna watch it and be all excited. And it's because [Page//00:30:00] it's their view of it, successes that you're doing, the things in your life that you want, whatever that might mean.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. I'd love that. You said that because that is what you need to know your why for healing anyway.
Julie Michelson: Um, and I love that you mentioned people come to me all the time, and they'll hear my story and they're like, I want to, I want to get off my meds. And I'm like, hum. Wait, don't you want life to be bigger again? Don't you, you know, don't you want to feel well, like, let's, let's start there. And then like you said, yeah, often that's what happens as we heal.
Julie Michelson: Right. But, but to me, that's not the target or, um, I know I I've interviewed people who think, you know, um, I take thyroid hormone and I'm, Happy to do. You know, I, I, my antibodies are, are normal. Everything is great. But yeah, I take a little a, a little, um, thyroid. Thyroid glandular. Well, I mean, and to me, that's not a failure.
Julie Michelson: That doesn't mean I [Page//00:31:00] haven't healed . It just means, okay. So that part, like I still needed that little bit of help and oh my gosh. I will fight you in an alley for my thyroid hormone. Like I'll give you my wallet, but you're not taking
Jamie Hartman: my
Julie Michelson: thyroid.
Jamie Hartman: So I mean, you think about it, if you had lost like the function and like, say your right foot, you know, for some reason, like it wasn't working, like how your thyroid's not working perfectly.
Jamie Hartman: Right. Would you like say it's only success if I can, Move without crutches, right? No, it's not. Yeah. You know, you know, you would use the crutches. You would be excited that you have some way to get
Julie Michelson: around.
Jamie Hartman: We'd celebrate it that you have a way to experience life and move around. And it's the same thing. If you have had a medical condition develop, um, and it there's medication that treats it, that will help you have a greater life, right?
Jamie Hartman: Then that's, It's something that's valid to use, and it is certainly not a sign of [Page//00:32:00] failure or success one way or the other. No. Whether you're using it or not.
Julie Michelson: That, right. And so I love the, the, the, I think that's an amazing place for people to start is to, and I know you do that when you work with people.
Julie Michelson: I do that when I work with people, but for anybody listening, even if you're not working with anybody, really take some time and what's your why? Start there because that's going to help you. That's going to give you that motivation to continue whatever path, whether it's modified AIP, whatever it is that you're going to decide to go after for healing.
Julie Michelson: Um, cause there are hard days and like you said, it's not magic where, okay, I'm avoiding these foods and I'm, I'm eating more veggies and, and bringing in good things. And, you know, I had three good days and then a bad day again, like healing is not linear. It never is. Yeah. And it does. So I think it's so important to consider your motivators and if you [Page//00:33:00] are somebody who would have, maybe a few minutes ago, check the box of, well, if my doctors told me I no longer had whatever, um, reconsider about like your day to day, what, what is it that you really want?
Julie Michelson: I love that. Um, we probably already touched on it, but I just want to, I, I, I've mentioned, I have some, you know, pet peeves about AIP perception out in the public. What is it that you would like either for people to know or for, or for people to let go of that they think is, you know, AIP in their mind?
Jamie Hartman: Yeah, I think there's so many and we have touched on a lot of them, I think the course of our conversation, I think the biggest one that comes to my mind right away is this idea that you have to be absolutely perfect or why bother?
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I really think there's a, that's a persuasive myth out there. Um, and it's true, [Page//00:34:00] you really can't have like a cheat day on AIP and expect it to be very helpful. You can't do it six days a
Julie Michelson: week.
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. I mean, if, if every, every few days or once a week, you're exposing yourself to something that is triggering your autoimmune disease.
Jamie Hartman: That's going to be a problem, but that is not the same thing as just living your life. And you don't have to be 100 percent perfect at all times for this to be beneficial. If you have a slip up, something goes wrong, you don't have to think about it as starting over. You didn't undo all the good work that you did before.
Jamie Hartman: It's it has tremendous healing power. When you keep it in perspective, I think that the impact of beating yourself up for slip ups or having so much stress and anxiety about being perfect all the time is going to negate. the benefit that you would get from having a calmer attitude about it and giving yourself some grace.
Jamie Hartman: That's tremendously important as well. [Page//00:35:00]
Julie Michelson: I love that. Um, a grace is a word. I didn't really, wasn't part of my everyday vocabulary until I started coaching specifically autoimmune clients. Um, because I, I feel like it's, It's, it's part of it and not, not, I'm not even just talking about AIP, I'm talking about life when we don't give ourselves grace in life, ourselves grace in life, um, we end up.
Julie Michelson: So,
Jamie Hartman: yeah, it's so common. I think when we're thinking about an autoimmune disease too, because we've been told autoimmune diseases, your body attacking itself, right? Yeah. And so we're already feeling like it's our fault or our body's fault, you know, and that's, it's not a really very helpful paradigm. I think it's much better to think of it in, in terms of your immune system has, is misfiring.
Jamie Hartman: Right. Your, your immune system's trying to protect you. It's always trying to protect you. Yeah. But there's a communication mistake. It's like, it's like calling, you know, for help [Page//00:36:00] calling 9 1 1. And, and they sent everything that they need when all you really needed was, you know, some assistance. You didn't need the firefighter to start the fire, knock down the wall and do all that kind of stuff.
Jamie Hartman: But it was a miscommunication. And that's what's happening with our immune system when we have an autoimmune disease. So our body's trying to help you. It's not attacking. It's trying to help. It's just miscommunicating.
Julie Michelson: I love that. I, I usually, um, I'll say, you know, it's like the troops are exhausted.
Julie Michelson: They're just not very precise. Um, but it's, it's, it is difficult in the beginning, at least, especially the way people are, I don't even want to use the word educated, the things that they're told if they're typically when they're diagnosed, even still, I mean, I mean, still now it's really common for somebody with ulcerative colitis or Crohn's.
Julie Michelson: to be told it doesn't matter [Page//00:37:00] what you eat. Um, you know, so there is, there's, there's, we still have some work to do. We'll continue having these conversations. Um, but your symptoms really, really are communication. And we should, you know, we don't want to listen. We ignore the aches and pains. We ignore the fact that we may have to run to the bathroom.
Julie Michelson: You know, we ignore the fact that I have one client who just normalized that she would not leave the house until 11 o'clock in the morning because she knew. She shouldn't. Um, and that just became like her. Okay. Part of her routine. Um, and, and, and so instead of listening as in, Oh, my body's giving me information, you know, we, we ignore, ignore until then we have the miscommunication going on.
Julie Michelson: Um, so I like that word. There's a lot of grace in that word, miscommunication, you know?
Jamie Hartman: Yeah. Cause you don't blame anybody for For miscommunication, if it was honest, you know, I didn't understand [Page//00:38:00] what you were saying. Yeah, we, we, we forgive that. We accept that. So yeah, that's your body as well.
Julie Michelson: I love that.
Julie Michelson: Oh, so amazing. I have like 852 other questions for you. Um, but I will honor your time and listeners time as well. So I'm going to ask my wrap up question, which is, and you can answer, it may, doesn't even have to be AIP related. What is one step that listeners can take, because you already gave us so many good ones, starting today, to improve their health?
Jamie Hartman: Oh, wow. That's really, I think the first thing they can do today is get outside.
Julie Michelson: Ah, yes.
Jamie Hartman: Just get in, you know, people will call it anything's officially call it grounding, but you don't have to think of it that way. Just somehow get your feet, your hands on the earth. I love it. If it's, if the weather is not really all that conducive to it.
Jamie Hartman: You can make [Page//00:39:00] that time in nature very brief, or you can maybe find a way to bring it in or just look at a picture if you have to, but find some connection to nature. It's very healing, very powerful.
Julie Michelson: I'm so glad you said that. That's like, I know, I knew whatever you were going to say was going to be impactful, but I love that you pulled that one in.
Julie Michelson: I literally ran in right before we, we hopped on camera to, you know, cause I was standing outside barefoot because. I could so love that love that I was, I was, we had just planted our garden last week, which might've been a gamble. It was a week, two weeks early, but so I was tending barefoot. So love it.
Julie Michelson: Amazing. Jamie, for people listening on the go, like I do, and they may not be willing to click those show notes, where is the best place for people to find you?
Jamie Hartman: Well, you can find information about me personally at my website, gutsy by nature. That was the blog that I started way back at the beginning of that story, when I [Page//00:40:00] first decided to change my diet and start keeping track of what I was eating.
Jamie Hartman: And then you can also find me and all the things that I'm doing with the other AIP certified coaches at AIP Summit. And that's a great place to start. If you're AIP curious at all, check it out.
Julie Michelson: And I have to throw this one out there for, for people because there's always a transition when, you know, when we're entertaining the idea of, of, you know, okay, am I going to do the AIP elimination, whether it's modified, um, I always, just like you were talking about bringing in the good foods as you're taking out the foods that you need to be temporarily avoiding.
Julie Michelson: I always tell people, you know, find new recipes. Jamie has amazing recipes. So go to gutsy by nature as well. And then also go to AIP summit because there's just so much information on there. Um, I'm blessed to be part of that community. It's, it's really making an impact. So I just think we're blessed
Jamie Hartman: to have you, Julie.
Jamie Hartman: Thank [Page//00:41:00] you.
Julie Michelson: Thank you. Thank you so much for all of the amazing gold that you gave us today. And I cannot encourage people enough to dig in if you have, if you're AIP curious, Jamie's your, your go to, so check out those sites.
Jamie Hartman: Thank you, Julie.
Julie Michelson: For everyone listening, remember you can get those transcripts and show notes by visiting inspiredliving.
Julie Michelson: show. I hope you had a great time and enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week.
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Jaime Hartman
Jaime Hartman is a National Board Certified Health & Wellness Coach, a Functional Nutritional Therapy Practitioner, and a Registered Yoga Teacher. She also has a master’s degree in educational psychology and is a teacher and mentor of other health care practitioners. Jaime is the owner of Gutsy By Nature, which she began in 2013 as a personal blog chronicling her experiences using dietary approaches, including an early version of the autoimmune protocol (AIP), to manage severe post-surgical Crohn’s disease. Jaime believes in the power of food and lifestyle and also in the power of professional collaboration, having experienced the benefits of both personally. She has edited and produced two community cookbooks devoted to recipes for the elimination phase of AIP, is the organizer and host of the ongoing AIP Summit series, and with Mickey Trescott facilitates the AIP Certified Coach Practitioner Training Program.
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