Episode 108
Debi Silber:
The Hidden Impact of Betrayal on Health and Autoimmunity
In this episode, I spoke to Dr. Debi Silber, founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute. Dr. Silber is an expert in the field of betrayal and shares her personal journey of experiencing betrayal and how it led her to create a program that helps individuals heal and transform their lives after betrayal.
First Aired on: Oct 9, 2023
Episode 108
Debi Silber:
The Hidden Impact of Betrayal on Health and Autoimmunity
In this episode, I spoke to Dr. Debi Silber, founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute. Dr. Silber is an expert in the field of betrayal and shares her personal journey of experiencing betrayal and how it led her to create a program that helps individuals heal and transform their lives after betrayal.
First Aired on: Oct 9, 2023
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
Impact of Post Betrayal Syndrome
- Post betrayal syndrome affects health and can lead to autoimmunity.
- Betrayal is a unique type of trauma that affects every aspect of a person’s life.
The Five Stages of Healing from Betrayal
- Stage 1: Balance between physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects of life.
- Stage 2: Shock and trauma.
- Individuals often get stuck in stage 3, not aware of further stages of transformation.
- Moving through stages 4 and 5 involves acknowledging the past and adopting a new worldview based on experience.
Symptoms of Post-Betrayal Syndrome
- Constantly revisiting the betrayal experience.
- Loss of personal power.
- Hypervigilance and painful triggers.
- Low energy, sleep issues, weight changes, and digestive problems.
- Feeling overwhelmed, disbelief, difficulty focusing, shock, sadness, anger, hurt, anxiety, and stress.
Trust Issues and Difficulty Forming Deep Relationships
- Trust issues arise from fear of being hurt again.
- Difficulty forming deep relationships due to the impact of betrayal.
Moving Beyond Survival Instincts
- Many people get stuck in stage three, clinging to the benefits of being right and receiving sympathy.
- Sabotaging healing out of fear of outgrowing the betrayer.
- Avoiding and distracting oneself to avoid facing the pain.
The Importance of Specialized Support
- Well-meaning therapists who are not skilled in handling betrayal may unintentionally retraumatize individuals.
- Couples counseling may not be effective if the impact of betrayal is minimized or blame is placed on the betrayed individual.
- The need for a predictable and proven roadmap to navigate the stages of healing from betrayal.
The Concept of Self-Betrayal and Shaping Beliefs
- Our minds shape beliefs about our worthiness and deservingness.
- Healing from betrayal is a choice, and there is a roadmap for those willing to pursue it.
The Power of Intention and Group Support
- Rebuilding relationships and finding forgiveness through intention and support.
- Letting go of old narratives and embracing new beginnings.
Sharing Experiences and Knowledge
- Personal experience is the best credential for understanding and assisting others in healing.
- The obligation to share what we have learned to help others.
Key Takeaways
- Betrayal is a unique trauma that has a profound impact on all aspects of life, including health and relationships.
- Post-betrayal syndrome is a collection of physical, mental, and emotional symptoms common to betrayal.
- Healing from betrayal involves moving through five stages of transformation.
- Specialized support is crucial for navigating the complexities of healing from betrayal.
- Self-betrayal and the narratives we create about our worthiness can hinder the healing process.
- The power of intention and group support can bring about positive change in healing and transforming one’s life.
Other Resources:
Connect with Debi Silber
Episode Transcript
[Page//00:00:00] Welcome back to the Inspired Living with Autoimmunity podcast. I'm your host, Julie Michelson. And today we're joined by Dr. Debi Silber, founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, otherwise known as the PBT Institute. Dr. Debbie is a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert, and a two time number one international bestselling author.
Her renowned podcast [Page//00:01:00] is from Betrayal to Breakthrough, and she's also the founder of National Forgiveness Day, which is celebrated annually on September 1st. In today's conversation, we are diving into the impact that post betrayal syndrome can have on our health and on our lives, and how to know if we haven't healed from a betrayal.
Also we're exploring the five stages from betrayal to breakthrough. And most importantly, just like it's never too late to heal your autoimmune symptoms, it's never too late to heal from betrayal and create your new world view.
Debi, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation.
As am I, this is such an amazing topic and you really have just pioneered progress in this field. And, and I know for a fact, because of what I do [Page//00:02:00] every day, that betrayal and post betrayal syndrome has such a huge impact on health and autoimmunity.
But first I would love for you to share with listeners a bit of your journey. How did you get to be focused on this amazing topic that is helping heal the world?
You know, I don't think anybody says, well, first of all, thank you and looking forward to this. I don't think anybody says, you know, I think I want to study braille like,
No.
you said it because you have to. So I was in health and then mindset and personal development. I had a really painful betrayal from my family thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that.
And then it happened a few years later. This time it was my husband. That was the deal breaker. So got him out of the house and looked at the two experiences and realized, you know, I never really took my own needs seriously and boundaries were always getting crossed. And, you know, if nothing changes, nothing [Page//00:03:00] changes.
So here it was four kids, six dogs. Business. And I was like, you know, I'm going back for a PhD. I don't even know what came over me to think that I would be able to do that, but or pay for it or anything. It was in a transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential, because I was changing so much.
I just was kind of intrigued with the topic. And he was too, wasn't ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal, what holds us back, what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive.
Honestly, I was only trying to get myself out of this pain. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.
Oh my goodness. And I hope you're going to share some of those discoveries with us.
Yeah, sure. I'd love
to. a feeling that betrayal [Page//00:04:00] was. A different type of trauma. I had been through death of a loved one. I'd been through disease and I was like, no betrayal feels different for me. And originally I was studying post traumatic growth, you know, which I kind of look at as the upside of trauma, how whatever the trauma is, right.
Leaves you with a new awareness, perspective, insight that you didn't have. Like maybe you lose someone you love and you realize no life is short. That kind of thing, but this felt different. I didn't want to assume it was the same for everybody. So I asked them if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, does it feel different for you?
And unanimously they said, oh my gosh, it's so different. And it feels so different because it feels so personal. You know, the entire self is shattered. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. You know, when you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. Life will never be the same.
You don't question the relationship. You don't
Or yourself.
[Page//00:05:00] Yes. Or your sanity, you know, with betrayal you do. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma. That was the first discovery. So I gave it its own name, which healing from it is now called post betrayal transformation, the complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal.
So that was the first discovery.
Awesome. Amazing. Which led to the PBT Institute.
Well, it
all making sense. Eventually.
If the third one led to PBT, do you want me to share what the second discovery was? Sure. So that was that was equally as exciting. And what was discovered was there's a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post betrayal syndrome.
So we've had. Tens of thousands of people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent they're struggling and a few things about that. [Page//00:06:00] The first thing is we've all heard time heals all wounds. Well, I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. There's a, a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share?
And people write things like my betrayal happened. 40 years ago, and I can still feel the hate. My betrayal happened 10 years ago. It feels like it happened yesterday. So we know you cannot count on time. You can't even count on a new relationship to heal it. The only thing that heals it is healing it, you know, deliberately and intentionally.
But every so often I pull the stats from the quiz to see where people land. I'm happy to share some if that would serve.
I would love that. And I know you generously there's, there's going to be a link in the show notes for users to take the quiz, which is as such a, it's a wonderful gift for people to be able to. Just start to even think about this as, Oh my gosh, is this what's going on with my health?
well, that's the thing because the with some of these stats I'm going to read, people would [Page//00:07:00] attribute them to aging or just to daily stress or whatever. And no, they're not. It's this is because of an unhealed betrayal, even if it happened decades ago. Okay. So now imagine, I think we've had 95, 000. And plus people take the quiz, men, women, just about every country is represented and listen to these numbers.
78 percent constantly revisit their experience. 81 percent feel a loss of personal power. 80 percent are hypervigilant, and that's exhausting. 94 percent deal with painful triggers. The most common physical symptoms, 71 percent have low energy, 68 percent have sleep issues, 63 percent have extreme fatigue, your adrenals have tanked, 47 percent have weight changes, so in the beginning maybe they can't hold food down, right, later on they're
And then they're
Emotionally eating. 45 percent have a digestive issue. That could be anything. Crohn's, IBS, [Page//00:08:00] diverticulitis. I mean, you name it. The most common mental symptoms. You know, I thought the digestive system one was so interesting too, because think about it. What does the gut do? It digests and processes And absorbs food.
Well, isn't a betrayal difficult to absorb? Digestive process.
tough to swallow.
Yeah, there you go. The most common mental symptoms. 78 percent are overwhelmed. 70 percent walking around in a state of disbelief. 68 percent can't focus. 64 percent are in shock. 62 percent can't concentrate. So just take that. You can't concentrate.
You can't sleep. You've got an issue. Now you have to show up for work. You still have to raise your kids. That's not even the emotional issues. Emotionally, 88 percent experience extreme sadness. 83 percent are very angry. 82 percent are hurt. 80 percent have anxiety. 79 percent are stressed. Just a few more.
Here's why I wrote the book trust again. 84 percent have an inability to trust. That would [Page//00:09:00] kill me. 67 percent prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they were afraid of being hurt again. 82 percent find it hard to move forward. 90 percent want to move forward, but they don't know how.
Wow. Wow. And as you were going through, even just some of the physical. Symptoms it's like, oh my God, you know, the, I mean, if you're always in fight or flight, then of course, you know, digestion, autoimmunity, adrenal, all, all the things it's this cascade. And I'm, I'm imagining a lot of people aren't even aware that, like, this is what's going on.
As you mentioned, like, we explain stuff away. We can always make up some, oh, this must be because of that.
Well, and you're so right. And the reason why we don't assume it's from betrayal because those numbers I read and they were [Page//00:10:00] high. You didn't hear me say one thing 20 percent or 30%.
Right.
They're also Not necessarily from a recent betrayal. So this could be from a parent who did something awful when you were a kid.
This could be from the girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think about this. That person may not know, care, remember. They may not even be alive. And here we are with these symptoms today because of something that happened way back then. So that's why we don't attribute these symptoms because we assume, Well, it happened years ago.
It can't possibly be that. Yes, it is. The good news is you can heal from all of it, which
It's never too late.
never
it. So number three is you can heal. Huh?
Yes. And, and, you know, and remember speaking of never too late. So, and I want to get to the third discovery, but as I shared with you right before we hit record, I had just gotten an email from a woman in her mid to late.
Eighties, we're talking about a family betrayal that she [Page//00:11:00] has carried for over 70 years. And within a two week period of doing specific, a specific type of betrayal work. She had, she had a gut issue for, for 70 plus years, healed the gut issues. And she is in her mid to late eighties, carrying it for 70 plus years.
Could you imagine just by doing this work? I mean, that's how powerful it is.
So incredible. I know I said to you, I got goosebumps when you told me and it's like, Oh my, what an incredible gift for her, you know, really? It just, it's, it is so incredible. So let's talk about number three a little
Right. So the third discovery, this for me was the most exciting and what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal and by fully heal, I mean those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome that I just shared to that completely rebuilt.
Place of post betrayal [Page//00:12:00] transformation. We're going to move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every one of those stages. And we know what's needed in order to move from one stage to the next healing is entirely predictable.
Happy to share the stages.
Yes, please. You know I'm going to ask.
Yep. And it's all we do within the PBT Institute. It's what all of our coaches are certified in. I'm going to give you a, an abbreviated version. So stage one is actually before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, what I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing, and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being.
Well, if the table only has two legs, it's easy for that table to topple over. That's us. Stage two, shock, trauma, D day, [Page//00:13:00] discovery day, the scariest of all of the stages. And this is, this is where we get the news that changes our lives forever. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview right here.
We've ignited the stress response. We're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Our mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We cannot wrap our mind around what we just learned. This makes no sense. And our worldview has just been shattered. Our worldview is our mental model.
The rules that govern us, that prevent chaos, don't go there. Trust this person. These are the rules. And in one Earth shattering moment. Every rule you've been abiding by and holding to be real and true is no longer. The bottom is bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. So this is terrifying, right?
I think about, yeah, exactly. But think about it. If the Excuse me, bottom word to bottom out on you. [Page//00:14:00] What would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone you could in order to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this?
Who can I trust? Where do I go? How do I feed my kids? It's practical. Here's the trap though. Stage three, by far, hands down, is the most common place we get stuck. I would, I would really take a guess and say, it wouldn't even be much of a guess to say, 90 percent of the people you work with are in stage three. Here's why. Once you've figured out how to survive your experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you just came from, you think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four or stage five transformation doesn't even begin until [Page//00:15:00] stage four.
But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. Well, we. Park here. We plant roots here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. Four things start to happen. The first thing is you start getting all these small self benefits. You know, you get to be right. We like being right, you know, you get someone to believe you get your story.
We love our story. You get sympathy from everyone you tell your story to, right? So we're getting these benefits and we don't really feel like we're getting much else. So we plant deeper roots again. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that now because we're here longer than we should be. The mind goes to work.
It starts saying things like, you know, maybe you're not that great. Maybe you deserved it. Maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots. Again, we're not supposed to, but we don't know. Now, because these are the thoughts we're thinking, well, this is the energy we're putting out. Like energy attracts like energy.
So now we're attracting people and circumstances [Page//00:16:00] and relationships. Towards us to confirm this is exactly where you belong. This is where we'll join that lame support group. And we will actually sabotage our healing because we now found our people. This is where people will sabotage their healing because they're afraid of outgrowing their betrayer.
And I'm talking about the type of betrayer who has no intention of changing, but they're so afraid of outgrowing them that they sabotage. And then of course, more of the same, that's the only thing you can guarantee. Anyway, it gets worse, but I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad,
don't want to be stuck in stage three any longer.
right.
And this is where most people stay, but because it's so bad, but we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We start nothing. We start avoiding, we start distracting. So right here, we start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, anything. So think [Page//00:17:00] about it. We do it for a day, a week. A month now, it's a habit, a year, 10 years, 20 years.
And I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing or that numbing in front of the TV, whatever. Do you think that has anything to do with your portrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. And they would say it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely. Yeah.
true to the majority of people you see, I imagine they're in stage three.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Because yeah, all we're doing here, we're suppressing and medicating this, you know, all the symptoms that show up and we're existing, you know, someone's in stage three when you're like, how's everything fine, you know, it's like that person is just
I always say that's a, that's a four letter F word.
Yeah, it's so true. It's like you've been through the worst of it already. You owe it to yourself to [Page//00:18:00] have that transformation. Anyway, if you're willing, willingness is a big word right here to let go of the small self benefits, grieve more in the last bunch of things you need to do. You move to stage four, stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal.
So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo. What happened, but I control what I do with it right there in that decision. You turn down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you just stopped the massive damage that was going on in stages two and stage three stage four feels like if you've ever moved, you know, if you've ever moved to a new house office, condo, whatever, all your stuff's not there.
It's not cozy yet, but you're like, okay, we got this. We got this, but think about it. If you were to really move, you wouldn't take everything with you. You don't take those things that don't represent the version of you that you want to be in this new space. And what I found was if your friends weren't there for you, [Page//00:19:00] you don't take them with you right here.
That lame support group. You've outgrown them. That betrayer who has no intention of changing, you, you don't take them with you. So people ask me all the time, like, what the heck? I've had, I've had these friends 10, 20, 30 years. Is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation. And if they don't rise.
They don't come. You're making very different decisions here. Anyway, when you've settled into this new mental space, you've made it cozy. You've made it home. You move into the fifth, most beautiful stage, and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal, self love, self care. Eating well, exercise, stuff like that.
You didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do. The mind is healing. You're making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries based on your experience. And you have a new world view based on the road you just traveled and the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental.
By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. [Page//00:20:00] Those are the five stages.
So amazing and powerful. And I love how you're giving it all to us. So I really encourage listeners to just go through this. episode like however many times as you can. Because there's so much here and I love the, the most beautiful part of it for me is what you guys are doing at the PBT Institute is, is this, and it sounds almost crazy that everybody has these, like, you know, this group of symptoms or, you know, nobody's coming in, like, not fitting somewhere on that scale.
And so that is incredible to me. Like I know we all think we're, you know, our , our our, our damage and our hurt is all. So, you know, unique and it is, but also you've created this system that actually [Page//00:21:00] works no matter what the betrayal was or like you said, or how long ago it happened.
Well, that's it. And it's so interesting because as members come in and there's like takes two seconds to know what stage someone's in. I mean, and I'm sure even by me going through the stages, everybody listening to this knows, Oh my gosh, that's me. They know what stage they're in. So, but the beauty is everybody is in there, you know, yes, the betrayals may have been a little bit different.
The pain is the same. The injustice. is the same. The, the, the, the feeling of being shocked and blindsided is the same. And when, you know, and that tattoos itself on your body, your mind, your heart. And, and the idea is with, here's a place where there's a predictable proven roadmap to move through it because, and even the type of support.
This type of support makes all the difference because the wrong support does more harm than good. Like for example, we have a lot of [Page//00:22:00] people coming into the PPT Institute with therapy trauma that the most well meaning therapists, but if they're not highly skilled in betrayal, like for example, if all you're doing is unpacking your story and unpacking your story and you feel heard and you feel validated, you're also re traumatized and recommitting to your story.
And And if anything glues you to stage three, like crazy glue, it's going over your story over and over and over without a strategic plan to move forward. I'm not saying you don't need to unpack it, but in the beginning, but there, there comes a place where it's doing way more harm than good. We have a lot of people who also come in where they've been to couples counseling.
And the whole intention of that couples counselor is only to get them okay. So usually what happens is they'll minimize, or maybe they don't understand the magnitude of what betrayal does to somebody, and they'll minimize it. And then maybe they'll [Page//00:23:00] even say to the, let's say betrayed, you know, if you just were you communicated better or whatever, blaming the, the And then the betrayer now feels, you know, even less, has less incentive to make the changes.
So, I mean, we even have programs for the, for the betrayers as well. And no one's giving them a free pass. We're not shaming or blaming them, but I see them at a group call. They do. And, and, and they're, they're willing to do it too. That's a very different type of person that I'm, you know, then the person who's just on to them.
Who's the what, what about, I'm thinking of the listener who's like, you know, oh my gosh, this symptom, that symptom, this has to be me. And I'm definitely because this, you know, I'm in stage three,
Mm hmm.
but I don't know what the betrayal was, but I don't, I don't have a conscious. Awareness [Page//00:24:00] that that is the thing, I'm guessing you help people get there or it doesn't matter.
You know, honestly, no, sometimes something could be suppressed, repressed because it's deep trauma and you were very young and your mind. Is protecting you that's that's one scenario right there. And then it can also be something that was, if you look at it. Now, it didn't have to be traumatic for you but the meaning you gave it.
Made it. So for example, let's say here is I wrote about this in from hardened to healed from hard to yield is just for stage three, like trust again, maps at all five stages, but everyone was stuck in stage three. So for more deals is just for that. So I wrote this story about this boy. Now imagine a little, little boy who has some earth shattering news to share with his mom and he runs into the kitchen and she's on the phone.
So she goes like she shushes him. Right at that very moment, [Page//00:25:00] he could have made that mean. I don't matter right there and the mind will believe everything you tell it. So now he goes through his day and someone accidentally closes the door on him. I don't matter. He goes, you know, something he'll he won't get picked.
for something. I don't matter. So, and then your mind looks for confirming evidence. So now he is gaining momentum with this belief of, I don't matter. And he's done it so many times. Then the mind's like, Oh, I didn't realize you want this playing all day long. No worries. You go about your business and I'll just keep this going on
keep
as a subconscious program. So here he is living the life. With the underlying belief of, I don't matter. So with that belief, you can imagine the choices he'll make, the relationships he'll have, right? Based on something as small as his mom shushing him.
And so, but he doesn't need to [Page//00:26:00] remember that that's where it started in order to move out of stage three.
He doesn't have to, but it's helpful because then he'll know if other people do things, be careful about the meaning that you give it, you know, so it may, it may be worth his while to learn that, but it's something as, as small as that. And then we live a stage three life because of that.
Wow. And that's where this. This, you know, experience of betrayal becomes just as impactful, whether it's big or small or yours or mine, you know, it's, it's because as we know, our perception creates our reality. So,
Exactly.
can see where that series of, of small things that somebody else. May not have even noticed like truly, you know, can then create a whole different path for
exactly. Exactly. And then think about even the self betrayal. I mean, [Page//00:27:00] that's huge too, because here we are believing these things. Our mind is so powerful, so powerful. It can have us believing we're less than unworthy, undeserving, unlovable, all this stuff. And then our lives will prove that. But then again, if we were the ones who created that, then we're the only ones who can create something different.
Betrayal has you questioning your entire value and self worth and all of it, because you're thinking, I'm a good person, like, aren't I? Maybe I'm
Right. Maybe I'm not right.
If I was so good, right? So it brings up all these questions and I want to make sure every everyone listening hears this too, because so often they're so angry at themselves.
How did I not see? How did I not know this went on right under my nose? And here's the thing. How could you? You don't know how to think like that. And that's a good thing.
I love that. Yeah. [Page//00:28:00] Yeah. Not wired that way. I'm not. Yeah. And also that, that would be its own set of problems. If you were, you know, that hype, that's that hyper vigilance before something happens and then you're calling it in.
Exactly. Sure. And then, you know, and that's the thing too. So we're, we're, we're walking around in this place of, you know, we're, we're angry. We didn't see, you know, we didn't see, we didn't know, but how could we, the other, the anger comes in at another point too. It's when we realize that we've been holding on to an unhealed betrayal for decades, and it's led to repeat betrayals and.
Every relationship is, is a different face, but it's the same thing. And then we realized that, oh my gosh, I've been doing this 10, 20, 30 plus years. Usually they're angry then too. However, without that awareness, they would keep this going for another 10, 20, 30 years. You know?
and I was really angry when I started to heal all my autoimmune symptoms [Page//00:29:00] because for over a decade, I didn't believe I could, I didn't know it was pot. So that is part of, I think this process of, of change when we realized, Oh my gosh, this did not have to be this way this long. Like we didn't need to do that.
Yeah.
yeah, exactly. Exactly. So there's, yeah, there's a roadmap now and there's really, and people don't like hearing this either. Now, healing is a choice. It really is
I love it though. It's not in a way of blame. It's
no,
It is a choice. And some people aren't going to make the choice. They don't want to. They, they wrap themselves up in that identity. And, and that's That's their choice.
is. It is. And you notice.
yeah,
what it feels like is like this. It's like imagine two best friends and they're both 30 pounds overweight and that's they know what it feels like to be 30 pounds overweight. And one day, one friend says, I'm so done with this. I'm [Page//00:30:00] just done. I'm just done with this whole way. And she is on a healthy eating journey and Eating well and exercising and living a whole different life loses the 30 pounds and she is feeling great.
Now she's wearing clothes that she wants to wear versus what fits, you know, having more energy, just feeling good in your own skin. And she says to the other friend, who's still 30 pounds overweight, you come on, I'll help you. It's so great over here. And the other friend who still has the 30 pounds on, she's like, no, no, I'm fine.
I'm really fine. I'm, I'm, I'm doing okay. And the other friend is like, I know what that feels like. I get it, but this feels so much
over here. Yeah.
so much better. So as fine as you may be doing in stage three, when we see members and we see it every single day, move into stage four and stage five, if you had a taste of what stage four and stage five feels like you wouldn't waste a day.
in stage three. That's how much better [Page//00:31:00] it feels in stages four and five.
I love it. That's amazing. You know, thinking, thinking about the betrayal, I mean, is there even such a thing? Because again, back to the little boy who was shushed, right? It's perception. It, is there really any adult traveling this earth who hasn't experienced some form of betrayal?
I mean, possibly, but it's very common. And it has so many different forms. We can even feel betrayed by a company. Like there's something called, I think it was when I was doing my research, something called like the love turns to hate principle. And we would rather purchase a product we know is bad for us, then purchase a product that says, It's good for us.
And we find out it's not we do
exactly where I went there. I, I experienced that with a product that before I knew [Page//00:32:00] better for years, I was using thinking or a line of products that, that it was clean. So these greenwashed products. I think can do that one. Then we, we find out it's the same thing because I was trying to make the good choice.
I thought they, they duped me. They tricked me. They
it. You see?
Oh
right. And that feeling we will turn on a company like that so quickly where think about it. You would have you could have chosen a product that you knew wasn't the healthiest. But it's honest. Dana, listen, you're taking your chance if you use us, but we're just letting you know, this is what we offer you.
Right. Or at least don't even, you know, or, or say nothing. And you know, then it's all on me, but yeah. Yeah. I love that you went there. I, and one of these days I will mention that company. It's still, cause I just had a client who is still [Page//00:33:00] using their products. No.
Yeah,
Yeah. Oh, so amazing. Incredible. And I have to bring up because I was so excited when I, when I found out you guys had made a national holiday.
we did. We did. Yeah. September 1st is now a national. Forgiveness Day, and it's so exciting. So to kick it off this past September, we had a three weeks, it was a 21 day forgiveness journey. And it was this live experience where the idea, it was sort of a social experiment. And the idea was to see, is it possible to go Go from angry, bitter and resentful to more forgiving and free with intention and group support.
And I honestly had no idea what to expect. And
[Page//00:34:00] would be,
I, I really, we had a tracker, and the tracker went from like you were supposed to write what you were gonna be working on a more minimal, not even the big betrayal, something, you know, a little less. triggering and to see, are you even willing to reflect on it?
Because some people were like, I'm not even looking at that and reflect on it. And then they would put a check in the first column. And then let's say they did that for a few days. Are you willing to release it? Like now that you've looked at it, are you willing to release it? And then if so, put a check in that column.
And then there was a third column. Are you willing to release this person, this experience from your life completely, or rebuild something entirely new? And I was shocked that in less than two weeks, people moved all three columns from from issues that had been plaguing them for decades.
Amazing. Which was the, the story you just shared with us about [Page//00:35:00] the, the woman in her eighties, right? Was part of that, that group. So in three weeks. Really,
It was too. Yeah. And I'm finding three weeks. I just made it three weeks. Cause I was like, okay, three weeks to form a habit, but it was in, it was in two weeks with intention and group support. And it was the, just everything we talked about each day, the stories, the activities, the, the examples, the everything, and, and the intention around it.
And the transformations that were happening whether it was forgiving that, that friend, that family member, that partner a lot of self forgiveness went on. It was, it was powerful,
so amazing. So beautiful. Is there anybody that this work isn't appropriate for like
someone who has way too much to gain from staying stuck.
I love that answer.
How did I know you would have an answer to
That, I mean, that person, they, they [Page//00:36:00] just, there's way too much invested in, you know, in their story and their trauma and their everything. They get so much from it and they don't trust what they get from letting that story go to a story that, that's so much better. Like, look at my own story.
Everybody I trusted betrayed me. Everybody I felt close with betrayed me. However what I did with. You know, with it, my story so much better like, and this just to close the loop on my story, forgive, you know, rebuilding is always a choice whether you rebuild yourself and move on. That's what I did with my family wasn't an option to rebuild with them, or if the situation lends itself if you're willing if you want to you rebuild something from the ground up entirely new with the person who are you.
And that's what I did with my husband so you know not long ago is to transform totally different people. We married each other again
Get out.
So, so think about it, like, look at my story now. And not even that. So [Page//00:37:00] new relationship, right? New family. Like we're all completely built
Well, and, and clearly, I'm assuming he's one of those people you referred to earlier who was willing to do the work to change.
would've, Yeah.
I never would've done this. And not only willing to do the work with me, willing to do the work with all of our kids because he was the one who told them. And if as you wake up and realize, What you've lost, it's losing. The only people that matter to you and it was team, it really was.
And he he, he really earned that back in the way that each one of the kids needed it. So it was a tremendous amount of
I, I'm like covered in goosebumps because I'm thinking about for him, like just how much more [Page//00:38:00] beautiful both of your lives and your collective family life is now because of all of that. . Right? Like, wow,
And people don't, you know, they're so afraid of the death and destruction of the old. I'll tell you that is the only way you birth the new. And this is someone I've been with since 1984. So I get. That, you know, when you have history and I get all of that, but, but that, that truly was the deal breaker.
And by me looking at it saying, okay, well now it's about, it's about the kids and it's about me and I'm just going to heal. And I have no idea what will come of this, but there was something in it where I just remember like there was a moment that I just remember thinking, I have no idea how I'm going to heal from this, but if I do, I'm taking everybody with me, you know,
it's
I love it.
Yeah.
injustice, the wrongness, there's not a cell of my body that was okay with betrayal. Like, I can [Page//00:39:00] honestly, you know, say, and any intuitive, whoever reads me, I'm like, read me, what do you see? I've never intentionally hurt a human being.
So to just be able to do something really good with something really painful, it's like, you know, trauma well served.
It, it is. I love that trauma well served. It is, I mean, look, this is . This is why I do what I'm doing. Right. Or it becomes our purpose. But I, I just, I love because I'm thinking, oh my gosh, otherwise, You'd have continually been calling in betrayal, like something had to change. And of course, because you're you now it's changing for, I don't even know, you know, just many, many, many people, as you said, all over the world too, it is such a, such a beautiful gift you have created out of your own personal work.
It's, you know, it, the whole idea is even, even with our [Page//00:40:00] coaches, I just certified right before our call. I certified a coach in Dubai. I mean, they're all over the world and it's so, it's so great for them because they've done the work themselves. And when it comes to healing from betrayal as qualified and credentialed.
As someone is for me, if they've experienced it and they've moved through all five stages, there is no greater credential than that.
I get it. I totally, this is what I do day in and day out. You know, I know I'm not a physician, but I guess I can help you heal.
Yes,
I've been there. I had a, I actually just had a call with a woman in Jordan
Yeah.
sent me the most beautiful email and, you know, of Oh, my God, just to talk to somebody who understands who has been where I am and who has healed.
And so it is, yeah, it is universal. It's [Page//00:41:00] amazing. And we all
I, I, I really feel like we're obligated if we figured out something because we've been through it. How selfish is that to just keep it to yourself, right? I feel like that's our obligation to share it just like you're doing. Yeah.
I love it. I love it. Amazing. So good. And it's been so much fun to just sit from the sidelines and observe over the years how your contribution through all of this. Has just continued to expand and, and grow and, and reach more people. So it's thank you for sharing your, your journey and, and this important work because I know anybody listening to this needs to hear it.
And, and needs to really consider, you know, oh my gosh, is this why I'm stuck? Is this why I'm sick? I don't know. It's incredible. [Page//00:42:00] So I always like to ask, which is sometimes a difficult question for people. What is one step that listeners can take today to start to improve their health or their life?
yeah, I would say just based on what we talked about, find out what stage you're in, and just move incrementally. Towards the next stage. It doesn't have to be a big step. You're only moving in one of two directions. Further or closer to everything you want. So, you know what stage you're in now. What's, what's, what's, you know, one little thing to move you towards that next stage.
I love that. And I love that you really, you know, highlight the incrementally, right? We tend to want to like, no, I'm going to make this big leap and that doesn't work. So I love it. I love it. Debbie, thank you so, so much for people that are listening on the go and they're not going to click [Page//00:43:00] on those show notes.
Where's the best place for them to find out more about you.
Thanks so much. Everything is at the PBT as in Post Betrayal Transformation. thePBTinstitute.com
I love it. And guys, seriously, not only for yourselves, share the link in the show notes with other people, take that quiz so that you really can get a better sense of what's, what's going on. And so can they, cause it's, it's becomes a gift.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for everybody listening. Remember you can get, get those show notes and transcripts at inspiredliving.show.
I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, please listen to it again. There's so much value, . I'll see you next week. [Page//00:44:00]
Her renowned podcast [Page//00:01:00] is from Betrayal to Breakthrough, and she's also the founder of National Forgiveness Day, which is celebrated annually on September 1st. In today's conversation, we are diving into the impact that post betrayal syndrome can have on our health and on our lives, and how to know if we haven't healed from a betrayal.
Also we're exploring the five stages from betrayal to breakthrough. And most importantly, just like it's never too late to heal your autoimmune symptoms, it's never too late to heal from betrayal and create your new world view.
Debi, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation.
As am I, this is such an amazing topic and you really have just pioneered progress in this field. And, and I know for a fact, because of what I do [Page//00:02:00] every day, that betrayal and post betrayal syndrome has such a huge impact on health and autoimmunity.
But first I would love for you to share with listeners a bit of your journey. How did you get to be focused on this amazing topic that is helping heal the world?
You know, I don't think anybody says, well, first of all, thank you and looking forward to this. I don't think anybody says, you know, I think I want to study braille like,
No.
you said it because you have to. So I was in health and then mindset and personal development. I had a really painful betrayal from my family thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that.
And then it happened a few years later. This time it was my husband. That was the deal breaker. So got him out of the house and looked at the two experiences and realized, you know, I never really took my own needs seriously and boundaries were always getting crossed. And, you know, if nothing changes, nothing [Page//00:03:00] changes.
So here it was four kids, six dogs. Business. And I was like, you know, I'm going back for a PhD. I don't even know what came over me to think that I would be able to do that, but or pay for it or anything. It was in a transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential, because I was changing so much.
I just was kind of intrigued with the topic. And he was too, wasn't ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal, what holds us back, what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive.
Honestly, I was only trying to get myself out of this pain. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.
Oh my goodness. And I hope you're going to share some of those discoveries with us.
Yeah, sure. I'd love
to. a feeling that betrayal [Page//00:04:00] was. A different type of trauma. I had been through death of a loved one. I'd been through disease and I was like, no betrayal feels different for me. And originally I was studying post traumatic growth, you know, which I kind of look at as the upside of trauma, how whatever the trauma is, right.
Leaves you with a new awareness, perspective, insight that you didn't have. Like maybe you lose someone you love and you realize no life is short. That kind of thing, but this felt different. I didn't want to assume it was the same for everybody. So I asked them if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, does it feel different for you?
And unanimously they said, oh my gosh, it's so different. And it feels so different because it feels so personal. You know, the entire self is shattered. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. You know, when you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. Life will never be the same.
You don't question the relationship. You don't
Or yourself.
[Page//00:05:00] Yes. Or your sanity, you know, with betrayal you do. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma. That was the first discovery. So I gave it its own name, which healing from it is now called post betrayal transformation, the complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal.
So that was the first discovery.
Awesome. Amazing. Which led to the PBT Institute.
Well, it
all making sense. Eventually.
If the third one led to PBT, do you want me to share what the second discovery was? Sure. So that was that was equally as exciting. And what was discovered was there's a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post betrayal syndrome.
So we've had. Tens of thousands of people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent they're struggling and a few things about that. [Page//00:06:00] The first thing is we've all heard time heals all wounds. Well, I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. There's a, a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share?
And people write things like my betrayal happened. 40 years ago, and I can still feel the hate. My betrayal happened 10 years ago. It feels like it happened yesterday. So we know you cannot count on time. You can't even count on a new relationship to heal it. The only thing that heals it is healing it, you know, deliberately and intentionally.
But every so often I pull the stats from the quiz to see where people land. I'm happy to share some if that would serve.
I would love that. And I know you generously there's, there's going to be a link in the show notes for users to take the quiz, which is as such a, it's a wonderful gift for people to be able to. Just start to even think about this as, Oh my gosh, is this what's going on with my health?
well, that's the thing because the with some of these stats I'm going to read, people would [Page//00:07:00] attribute them to aging or just to daily stress or whatever. And no, they're not. It's this is because of an unhealed betrayal, even if it happened decades ago. Okay. So now imagine, I think we've had 95, 000. And plus people take the quiz, men, women, just about every country is represented and listen to these numbers.
78 percent constantly revisit their experience. 81 percent feel a loss of personal power. 80 percent are hypervigilant, and that's exhausting. 94 percent deal with painful triggers. The most common physical symptoms, 71 percent have low energy, 68 percent have sleep issues, 63 percent have extreme fatigue, your adrenals have tanked, 47 percent have weight changes, so in the beginning maybe they can't hold food down, right, later on they're
And then they're
Emotionally eating. 45 percent have a digestive issue. That could be anything. Crohn's, IBS, [Page//00:08:00] diverticulitis. I mean, you name it. The most common mental symptoms. You know, I thought the digestive system one was so interesting too, because think about it. What does the gut do? It digests and processes And absorbs food.
Well, isn't a betrayal difficult to absorb? Digestive process.
tough to swallow.
Yeah, there you go. The most common mental symptoms. 78 percent are overwhelmed. 70 percent walking around in a state of disbelief. 68 percent can't focus. 64 percent are in shock. 62 percent can't concentrate. So just take that. You can't concentrate.
You can't sleep. You've got an issue. Now you have to show up for work. You still have to raise your kids. That's not even the emotional issues. Emotionally, 88 percent experience extreme sadness. 83 percent are very angry. 82 percent are hurt. 80 percent have anxiety. 79 percent are stressed. Just a few more.
Here's why I wrote the book trust again. 84 percent have an inability to trust. That would [Page//00:09:00] kill me. 67 percent prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they were afraid of being hurt again. 82 percent find it hard to move forward. 90 percent want to move forward, but they don't know how.
Wow. Wow. And as you were going through, even just some of the physical. Symptoms it's like, oh my God, you know, the, I mean, if you're always in fight or flight, then of course, you know, digestion, autoimmunity, adrenal, all, all the things it's this cascade. And I'm, I'm imagining a lot of people aren't even aware that, like, this is what's going on.
As you mentioned, like, we explain stuff away. We can always make up some, oh, this must be because of that.
Well, and you're so right. And the reason why we don't assume it's from betrayal because those numbers I read and they were [Page//00:10:00] high. You didn't hear me say one thing 20 percent or 30%.
Right.
They're also Not necessarily from a recent betrayal. So this could be from a parent who did something awful when you were a kid.
This could be from the girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think about this. That person may not know, care, remember. They may not even be alive. And here we are with these symptoms today because of something that happened way back then. So that's why we don't attribute these symptoms because we assume, Well, it happened years ago.
It can't possibly be that. Yes, it is. The good news is you can heal from all of it, which
It's never too late.
never
it. So number three is you can heal. Huh?
Yes. And, and, you know, and remember speaking of never too late. So, and I want to get to the third discovery, but as I shared with you right before we hit record, I had just gotten an email from a woman in her mid to late.
Eighties, we're talking about a family betrayal that she [Page//00:11:00] has carried for over 70 years. And within a two week period of doing specific, a specific type of betrayal work. She had, she had a gut issue for, for 70 plus years, healed the gut issues. And she is in her mid to late eighties, carrying it for 70 plus years.
Could you imagine just by doing this work? I mean, that's how powerful it is.
So incredible. I know I said to you, I got goosebumps when you told me and it's like, Oh my, what an incredible gift for her, you know, really? It just, it's, it is so incredible. So let's talk about number three a little
Right. So the third discovery, this for me was the most exciting and what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal and by fully heal, I mean those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome that I just shared to that completely rebuilt.
Place of post betrayal [Page//00:12:00] transformation. We're going to move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every one of those stages. And we know what's needed in order to move from one stage to the next healing is entirely predictable.
Happy to share the stages.
Yes, please. You know I'm going to ask.
Yep. And it's all we do within the PBT Institute. It's what all of our coaches are certified in. I'm going to give you a, an abbreviated version. So stage one is actually before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, what I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing, and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being.
Well, if the table only has two legs, it's easy for that table to topple over. That's us. Stage two, shock, trauma, D day, [Page//00:13:00] discovery day, the scariest of all of the stages. And this is, this is where we get the news that changes our lives forever. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview right here.
We've ignited the stress response. We're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Our mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We cannot wrap our mind around what we just learned. This makes no sense. And our worldview has just been shattered. Our worldview is our mental model.
The rules that govern us, that prevent chaos, don't go there. Trust this person. These are the rules. And in one Earth shattering moment. Every rule you've been abiding by and holding to be real and true is no longer. The bottom is bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. So this is terrifying, right?
I think about, yeah, exactly. But think about it. If the Excuse me, bottom word to bottom out on you. [Page//00:14:00] What would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone you could in order to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this?
Who can I trust? Where do I go? How do I feed my kids? It's practical. Here's the trap though. Stage three, by far, hands down, is the most common place we get stuck. I would, I would really take a guess and say, it wouldn't even be much of a guess to say, 90 percent of the people you work with are in stage three. Here's why. Once you've figured out how to survive your experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you just came from, you think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four or stage five transformation doesn't even begin until [Page//00:15:00] stage four.
But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. Well, we. Park here. We plant roots here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. Four things start to happen. The first thing is you start getting all these small self benefits. You know, you get to be right. We like being right, you know, you get someone to believe you get your story.
We love our story. You get sympathy from everyone you tell your story to, right? So we're getting these benefits and we don't really feel like we're getting much else. So we plant deeper roots again. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that now because we're here longer than we should be. The mind goes to work.
It starts saying things like, you know, maybe you're not that great. Maybe you deserved it. Maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots. Again, we're not supposed to, but we don't know. Now, because these are the thoughts we're thinking, well, this is the energy we're putting out. Like energy attracts like energy.
So now we're attracting people and circumstances [Page//00:16:00] and relationships. Towards us to confirm this is exactly where you belong. This is where we'll join that lame support group. And we will actually sabotage our healing because we now found our people. This is where people will sabotage their healing because they're afraid of outgrowing their betrayer.
And I'm talking about the type of betrayer who has no intention of changing, but they're so afraid of outgrowing them that they sabotage. And then of course, more of the same, that's the only thing you can guarantee. Anyway, it gets worse, but I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad,
don't want to be stuck in stage three any longer.
right.
And this is where most people stay, but because it's so bad, but we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We start nothing. We start avoiding, we start distracting. So right here, we start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, anything. So think [Page//00:17:00] about it. We do it for a day, a week. A month now, it's a habit, a year, 10 years, 20 years.
And I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing or that numbing in front of the TV, whatever. Do you think that has anything to do with your portrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. And they would say it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely. Yeah.
true to the majority of people you see, I imagine they're in stage three.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Because yeah, all we're doing here, we're suppressing and medicating this, you know, all the symptoms that show up and we're existing, you know, someone's in stage three when you're like, how's everything fine, you know, it's like that person is just
I always say that's a, that's a four letter F word.
Yeah, it's so true. It's like you've been through the worst of it already. You owe it to yourself to [Page//00:18:00] have that transformation. Anyway, if you're willing, willingness is a big word right here to let go of the small self benefits, grieve more in the last bunch of things you need to do. You move to stage four, stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal.
So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo. What happened, but I control what I do with it right there in that decision. You turn down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you just stopped the massive damage that was going on in stages two and stage three stage four feels like if you've ever moved, you know, if you've ever moved to a new house office, condo, whatever, all your stuff's not there.
It's not cozy yet, but you're like, okay, we got this. We got this, but think about it. If you were to really move, you wouldn't take everything with you. You don't take those things that don't represent the version of you that you want to be in this new space. And what I found was if your friends weren't there for you, [Page//00:19:00] you don't take them with you right here.
That lame support group. You've outgrown them. That betrayer who has no intention of changing, you, you don't take them with you. So people ask me all the time, like, what the heck? I've had, I've had these friends 10, 20, 30 years. Is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation. And if they don't rise.
They don't come. You're making very different decisions here. Anyway, when you've settled into this new mental space, you've made it cozy. You've made it home. You move into the fifth, most beautiful stage, and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal, self love, self care. Eating well, exercise, stuff like that.
You didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do. The mind is healing. You're making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries based on your experience. And you have a new world view based on the road you just traveled and the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental.
By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. [Page//00:20:00] Those are the five stages.
So amazing and powerful. And I love how you're giving it all to us. So I really encourage listeners to just go through this. episode like however many times as you can. Because there's so much here and I love the, the most beautiful part of it for me is what you guys are doing at the PBT Institute is, is this, and it sounds almost crazy that everybody has these, like, you know, this group of symptoms or, you know, nobody's coming in, like, not fitting somewhere on that scale.
And so that is incredible to me. Like I know we all think we're, you know, our , our our, our damage and our hurt is all. So, you know, unique and it is, but also you've created this system that actually [Page//00:21:00] works no matter what the betrayal was or like you said, or how long ago it happened.
Well, that's it. And it's so interesting because as members come in and there's like takes two seconds to know what stage someone's in. I mean, and I'm sure even by me going through the stages, everybody listening to this knows, Oh my gosh, that's me. They know what stage they're in. So, but the beauty is everybody is in there, you know, yes, the betrayals may have been a little bit different.
The pain is the same. The injustice. is the same. The, the, the, the feeling of being shocked and blindsided is the same. And when, you know, and that tattoos itself on your body, your mind, your heart. And, and the idea is with, here's a place where there's a predictable proven roadmap to move through it because, and even the type of support.
This type of support makes all the difference because the wrong support does more harm than good. Like for example, we have a lot of [Page//00:22:00] people coming into the PPT Institute with therapy trauma that the most well meaning therapists, but if they're not highly skilled in betrayal, like for example, if all you're doing is unpacking your story and unpacking your story and you feel heard and you feel validated, you're also re traumatized and recommitting to your story.
And And if anything glues you to stage three, like crazy glue, it's going over your story over and over and over without a strategic plan to move forward. I'm not saying you don't need to unpack it, but in the beginning, but there, there comes a place where it's doing way more harm than good. We have a lot of people who also come in where they've been to couples counseling.
And the whole intention of that couples counselor is only to get them okay. So usually what happens is they'll minimize, or maybe they don't understand the magnitude of what betrayal does to somebody, and they'll minimize it. And then maybe they'll [Page//00:23:00] even say to the, let's say betrayed, you know, if you just were you communicated better or whatever, blaming the, the And then the betrayer now feels, you know, even less, has less incentive to make the changes.
So, I mean, we even have programs for the, for the betrayers as well. And no one's giving them a free pass. We're not shaming or blaming them, but I see them at a group call. They do. And, and, and they're, they're willing to do it too. That's a very different type of person that I'm, you know, then the person who's just on to them.
Who's the what, what about, I'm thinking of the listener who's like, you know, oh my gosh, this symptom, that symptom, this has to be me. And I'm definitely because this, you know, I'm in stage three,
Mm hmm.
but I don't know what the betrayal was, but I don't, I don't have a conscious. Awareness [Page//00:24:00] that that is the thing, I'm guessing you help people get there or it doesn't matter.
You know, honestly, no, sometimes something could be suppressed, repressed because it's deep trauma and you were very young and your mind. Is protecting you that's that's one scenario right there. And then it can also be something that was, if you look at it. Now, it didn't have to be traumatic for you but the meaning you gave it.
Made it. So for example, let's say here is I wrote about this in from hardened to healed from hard to yield is just for stage three, like trust again, maps at all five stages, but everyone was stuck in stage three. So for more deals is just for that. So I wrote this story about this boy. Now imagine a little, little boy who has some earth shattering news to share with his mom and he runs into the kitchen and she's on the phone.
So she goes like she shushes him. Right at that very moment, [Page//00:25:00] he could have made that mean. I don't matter right there and the mind will believe everything you tell it. So now he goes through his day and someone accidentally closes the door on him. I don't matter. He goes, you know, something he'll he won't get picked.
for something. I don't matter. So, and then your mind looks for confirming evidence. So now he is gaining momentum with this belief of, I don't matter. And he's done it so many times. Then the mind's like, Oh, I didn't realize you want this playing all day long. No worries. You go about your business and I'll just keep this going on
keep
as a subconscious program. So here he is living the life. With the underlying belief of, I don't matter. So with that belief, you can imagine the choices he'll make, the relationships he'll have, right? Based on something as small as his mom shushing him.
And so, but he doesn't need to [Page//00:26:00] remember that that's where it started in order to move out of stage three.
He doesn't have to, but it's helpful because then he'll know if other people do things, be careful about the meaning that you give it, you know, so it may, it may be worth his while to learn that, but it's something as, as small as that. And then we live a stage three life because of that.
Wow. And that's where this. This, you know, experience of betrayal becomes just as impactful, whether it's big or small or yours or mine, you know, it's, it's because as we know, our perception creates our reality. So,
Exactly.
can see where that series of, of small things that somebody else. May not have even noticed like truly, you know, can then create a whole different path for
exactly. Exactly. And then think about even the self betrayal. I mean, [Page//00:27:00] that's huge too, because here we are believing these things. Our mind is so powerful, so powerful. It can have us believing we're less than unworthy, undeserving, unlovable, all this stuff. And then our lives will prove that. But then again, if we were the ones who created that, then we're the only ones who can create something different.
Betrayal has you questioning your entire value and self worth and all of it, because you're thinking, I'm a good person, like, aren't I? Maybe I'm
Right. Maybe I'm not right.
If I was so good, right? So it brings up all these questions and I want to make sure every everyone listening hears this too, because so often they're so angry at themselves.
How did I not see? How did I not know this went on right under my nose? And here's the thing. How could you? You don't know how to think like that. And that's a good thing.
I love that. Yeah. [Page//00:28:00] Yeah. Not wired that way. I'm not. Yeah. And also that, that would be its own set of problems. If you were, you know, that hype, that's that hyper vigilance before something happens and then you're calling it in.
Exactly. Sure. And then, you know, and that's the thing too. So we're, we're, we're walking around in this place of, you know, we're, we're angry. We didn't see, you know, we didn't see, we didn't know, but how could we, the other, the anger comes in at another point too. It's when we realize that we've been holding on to an unhealed betrayal for decades, and it's led to repeat betrayals and.
Every relationship is, is a different face, but it's the same thing. And then we realized that, oh my gosh, I've been doing this 10, 20, 30 plus years. Usually they're angry then too. However, without that awareness, they would keep this going for another 10, 20, 30 years. You know?
and I was really angry when I started to heal all my autoimmune symptoms [Page//00:29:00] because for over a decade, I didn't believe I could, I didn't know it was pot. So that is part of, I think this process of, of change when we realized, Oh my gosh, this did not have to be this way this long. Like we didn't need to do that.
Yeah.
yeah, exactly. Exactly. So there's, yeah, there's a roadmap now and there's really, and people don't like hearing this either. Now, healing is a choice. It really is
I love it though. It's not in a way of blame. It's
no,
It is a choice. And some people aren't going to make the choice. They don't want to. They, they wrap themselves up in that identity. And, and that's That's their choice.
is. It is. And you notice.
yeah,
what it feels like is like this. It's like imagine two best friends and they're both 30 pounds overweight and that's they know what it feels like to be 30 pounds overweight. And one day, one friend says, I'm so done with this. I'm [Page//00:30:00] just done. I'm just done with this whole way. And she is on a healthy eating journey and Eating well and exercising and living a whole different life loses the 30 pounds and she is feeling great.
Now she's wearing clothes that she wants to wear versus what fits, you know, having more energy, just feeling good in your own skin. And she says to the other friend, who's still 30 pounds overweight, you come on, I'll help you. It's so great over here. And the other friend who still has the 30 pounds on, she's like, no, no, I'm fine.
I'm really fine. I'm, I'm, I'm doing okay. And the other friend is like, I know what that feels like. I get it, but this feels so much
over here. Yeah.
so much better. So as fine as you may be doing in stage three, when we see members and we see it every single day, move into stage four and stage five, if you had a taste of what stage four and stage five feels like you wouldn't waste a day.
in stage three. That's how much better [Page//00:31:00] it feels in stages four and five.
I love it. That's amazing. You know, thinking, thinking about the betrayal, I mean, is there even such a thing? Because again, back to the little boy who was shushed, right? It's perception. It, is there really any adult traveling this earth who hasn't experienced some form of betrayal?
I mean, possibly, but it's very common. And it has so many different forms. We can even feel betrayed by a company. Like there's something called, I think it was when I was doing my research, something called like the love turns to hate principle. And we would rather purchase a product we know is bad for us, then purchase a product that says, It's good for us.
And we find out it's not we do
exactly where I went there. I, I experienced that with a product that before I knew [Page//00:32:00] better for years, I was using thinking or a line of products that, that it was clean. So these greenwashed products. I think can do that one. Then we, we find out it's the same thing because I was trying to make the good choice.
I thought they, they duped me. They tricked me. They
it. You see?
Oh
right. And that feeling we will turn on a company like that so quickly where think about it. You would have you could have chosen a product that you knew wasn't the healthiest. But it's honest. Dana, listen, you're taking your chance if you use us, but we're just letting you know, this is what we offer you.
Right. Or at least don't even, you know, or, or say nothing. And you know, then it's all on me, but yeah. Yeah. I love that you went there. I, and one of these days I will mention that company. It's still, cause I just had a client who is still [Page//00:33:00] using their products. No.
Yeah,
Yeah. Oh, so amazing. Incredible. And I have to bring up because I was so excited when I, when I found out you guys had made a national holiday.
we did. We did. Yeah. September 1st is now a national. Forgiveness Day, and it's so exciting. So to kick it off this past September, we had a three weeks, it was a 21 day forgiveness journey. And it was this live experience where the idea, it was sort of a social experiment. And the idea was to see, is it possible to go Go from angry, bitter and resentful to more forgiving and free with intention and group support.
And I honestly had no idea what to expect. And
[Page//00:34:00] would be,
I, I really, we had a tracker, and the tracker went from like you were supposed to write what you were gonna be working on a more minimal, not even the big betrayal, something, you know, a little less. triggering and to see, are you even willing to reflect on it?
Because some people were like, I'm not even looking at that and reflect on it. And then they would put a check in the first column. And then let's say they did that for a few days. Are you willing to release it? Like now that you've looked at it, are you willing to release it? And then if so, put a check in that column.
And then there was a third column. Are you willing to release this person, this experience from your life completely, or rebuild something entirely new? And I was shocked that in less than two weeks, people moved all three columns from from issues that had been plaguing them for decades.
Amazing. Which was the, the story you just shared with us about [Page//00:35:00] the, the woman in her eighties, right? Was part of that, that group. So in three weeks. Really,
It was too. Yeah. And I'm finding three weeks. I just made it three weeks. Cause I was like, okay, three weeks to form a habit, but it was in, it was in two weeks with intention and group support. And it was the, just everything we talked about each day, the stories, the activities, the, the examples, the everything, and, and the intention around it.
And the transformations that were happening whether it was forgiving that, that friend, that family member, that partner a lot of self forgiveness went on. It was, it was powerful,
so amazing. So beautiful. Is there anybody that this work isn't appropriate for like
someone who has way too much to gain from staying stuck.
I love that answer.
How did I know you would have an answer to
That, I mean, that person, they, they [Page//00:36:00] just, there's way too much invested in, you know, in their story and their trauma and their everything. They get so much from it and they don't trust what they get from letting that story go to a story that, that's so much better. Like, look at my own story.
Everybody I trusted betrayed me. Everybody I felt close with betrayed me. However what I did with. You know, with it, my story so much better like, and this just to close the loop on my story, forgive, you know, rebuilding is always a choice whether you rebuild yourself and move on. That's what I did with my family wasn't an option to rebuild with them, or if the situation lends itself if you're willing if you want to you rebuild something from the ground up entirely new with the person who are you.
And that's what I did with my husband so you know not long ago is to transform totally different people. We married each other again
Get out.
So, so think about it, like, look at my story now. And not even that. So [Page//00:37:00] new relationship, right? New family. Like we're all completely built
Well, and, and clearly, I'm assuming he's one of those people you referred to earlier who was willing to do the work to change.
would've, Yeah.
I never would've done this. And not only willing to do the work with me, willing to do the work with all of our kids because he was the one who told them. And if as you wake up and realize, What you've lost, it's losing. The only people that matter to you and it was team, it really was.
And he he, he really earned that back in the way that each one of the kids needed it. So it was a tremendous amount of
I, I'm like covered in goosebumps because I'm thinking about for him, like just how much more [Page//00:38:00] beautiful both of your lives and your collective family life is now because of all of that. . Right? Like, wow,
And people don't, you know, they're so afraid of the death and destruction of the old. I'll tell you that is the only way you birth the new. And this is someone I've been with since 1984. So I get. That, you know, when you have history and I get all of that, but, but that, that truly was the deal breaker.
And by me looking at it saying, okay, well now it's about, it's about the kids and it's about me and I'm just going to heal. And I have no idea what will come of this, but there was something in it where I just remember like there was a moment that I just remember thinking, I have no idea how I'm going to heal from this, but if I do, I'm taking everybody with me, you know,
it's
I love it.
Yeah.
injustice, the wrongness, there's not a cell of my body that was okay with betrayal. Like, I can [Page//00:39:00] honestly, you know, say, and any intuitive, whoever reads me, I'm like, read me, what do you see? I've never intentionally hurt a human being.
So to just be able to do something really good with something really painful, it's like, you know, trauma well served.
It, it is. I love that trauma well served. It is, I mean, look, this is . This is why I do what I'm doing. Right. Or it becomes our purpose. But I, I just, I love because I'm thinking, oh my gosh, otherwise, You'd have continually been calling in betrayal, like something had to change. And of course, because you're you now it's changing for, I don't even know, you know, just many, many, many people, as you said, all over the world too, it is such a, such a beautiful gift you have created out of your own personal work.
It's, you know, it, the whole idea is even, even with our [Page//00:40:00] coaches, I just certified right before our call. I certified a coach in Dubai. I mean, they're all over the world and it's so, it's so great for them because they've done the work themselves. And when it comes to healing from betrayal as qualified and credentialed.
As someone is for me, if they've experienced it and they've moved through all five stages, there is no greater credential than that.
I get it. I totally, this is what I do day in and day out. You know, I know I'm not a physician, but I guess I can help you heal.
Yes,
I've been there. I had a, I actually just had a call with a woman in Jordan
Yeah.
sent me the most beautiful email and, you know, of Oh, my God, just to talk to somebody who understands who has been where I am and who has healed.
And so it is, yeah, it is universal. It's [Page//00:41:00] amazing. And we all
I, I, I really feel like we're obligated if we figured out something because we've been through it. How selfish is that to just keep it to yourself, right? I feel like that's our obligation to share it just like you're doing. Yeah.
I love it. I love it. Amazing. So good. And it's been so much fun to just sit from the sidelines and observe over the years how your contribution through all of this. Has just continued to expand and, and grow and, and reach more people. So it's thank you for sharing your, your journey and, and this important work because I know anybody listening to this needs to hear it.
And, and needs to really consider, you know, oh my gosh, is this why I'm stuck? Is this why I'm sick? I don't know. It's incredible. [Page//00:42:00] So I always like to ask, which is sometimes a difficult question for people. What is one step that listeners can take today to start to improve their health or their life?
yeah, I would say just based on what we talked about, find out what stage you're in, and just move incrementally. Towards the next stage. It doesn't have to be a big step. You're only moving in one of two directions. Further or closer to everything you want. So, you know what stage you're in now. What's, what's, what's, you know, one little thing to move you towards that next stage.
I love that. And I love that you really, you know, highlight the incrementally, right? We tend to want to like, no, I'm going to make this big leap and that doesn't work. So I love it. I love it. Debbie, thank you so, so much for people that are listening on the go and they're not going to click [Page//00:43:00] on those show notes.
Where's the best place for them to find out more about you.
Thanks so much. Everything is at the PBT as in Post Betrayal Transformation. thePBTinstitute.com
I love it. And guys, seriously, not only for yourselves, share the link in the show notes with other people, take that quiz so that you really can get a better sense of what's, what's going on. And so can they, cause it's, it's becomes a gift.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for everybody listening. Remember you can get, get those show notes and transcripts at inspiredliving.show.
I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, please listen to it again. There's so much value, . I'll see you next week. [Page//00:44:00]
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My Guest For This Episode
Connect with Debi Silber
Debi Silber
Holistic Psychologist
Dr. Debi Silber is the founder of the PBT (Post Betrayal Transformation) Institute and is a holistic psychologist, a health, mindset and personal development expert, the author of Trust Again, and is a 2-time #1 International bestselling author of: The Unshakable Woman AND From Hardened to Healed: The Effortless Path to Release Resistance, Get Unstuck and Create a Life You Love.
Her podcast: From Betrayal to Breakthrough is also globally ranked within the top 1.5% of podcasts.
Her recent PhD study on how we experience betrayal made 3 groundbreaking discoveries that changes how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on FOX, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, TEDx (twice) and more, she’s an award-winning speaker and coach dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals as well as any other blocks preventing them from the health, work, relationships, confidence, and happiness they want most.
Her podcast: From Betrayal to Breakthrough is also globally ranked within the top 1.5% of podcasts.
Her recent PhD study on how we experience betrayal made 3 groundbreaking discoveries that changes how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on FOX, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, TEDx (twice) and more, she’s an award-winning speaker and coach dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals as well as any other blocks preventing them from the health, work, relationships, confidence, and happiness they want most.
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