Episode 87
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
In this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Melinda Ring, Director of Osher Center for Integrative Health and Clinical Associate Professor in the departments of Medicine and Medical Social Sciences at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine. Our conversation focused on the use of food as medicine for autoimmune empowerment.
Dr. Ring shared her expertise in integrative and culinary medicine, highlighting the importance of a personalized, plant-forward, and anti-inflammatory approach to our diets. We discussed the potential causes of autoimmune diseases, including changes in farming practices and the depletion of nutrients in soil and plants. We also touched on the reintroduction phase of an elimination diet and the importance of doing it methodically.
One key takeaway from our discussion was the importance of personalization and feasibility in dietary recommendations. We emphasized the need for guidance during the reintroduction phase and how the body can sometimes heal and tolerate foods that were previously avoided. We also discussed how taste buds can regenerate after removing processed foods and sugar from one's diet, allowing people to enjoy healthier foods more.
We suggest getting comfortable with using a knife for food preparation, prepping healthy meals ahead of time, and slowly integrating changes towards a real foods diet that can help avoid autoimmune conditions. Ultimately, it is about developing an awareness of hunger to make healthy choices easier and loving the food that loves you back.
Overall, our conversation was a deep dive into how food can be used as medicine for autoimmune empowerment, and we hope our listeners came away with a better understanding of how to approach their diet from a holistic perspective. For more information on culinary medicine, check out our podcast episode or seek guidance from a licensed nutritionist.
Dr. Ring shared her expertise in integrative and culinary medicine, highlighting the importance of a personalized, plant-forward, and anti-inflammatory approach to our diets. We discussed the potential causes of autoimmune diseases, including changes in farming practices and the depletion of nutrients in soil and plants. We also touched on the reintroduction phase of an elimination diet and the importance of doing it methodically.
One key takeaway from our discussion was the importance of personalization and feasibility in dietary recommendations. We emphasized the need for guidance during the reintroduction phase and how the body can sometimes heal and tolerate foods that were previously avoided. We also discussed how taste buds can regenerate after removing processed foods and sugar from one's diet, allowing people to enjoy healthier foods more.
We suggest getting comfortable with using a knife for food preparation, prepping healthy meals ahead of time, and slowly integrating changes towards a real foods diet that can help avoid autoimmune conditions. Ultimately, it is about developing an awareness of hunger to make healthy choices easier and loving the food that loves you back.
Overall, our conversation was a deep dive into how food can be used as medicine for autoimmune empowerment, and we hope our listeners came away with a better understanding of how to approach their diet from a holistic perspective. For more information on culinary medicine, check out our podcast episode or seek guidance from a licensed nutritionist.
Other Resources:
Connect with Melinda Ring
Episode Transcript
Julie Michelson: [Page//00:00:00] Welcome back to the Inspired Living with Autoimmunity podcast. I'm your host, Julie Michelson and today we're joined by Dr. Melinda Ring, director of Osher Center for Integrative Health and Clinical Associate Professor in the departments of Medicine and Medical Social Sciences at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine.
She has an active clinical practice while also being an [Page//00:01:00] educator, researcher and author. In today's conversation, we're discussing culinary medicine and food is medicine for autoimmune empowerment.
Dr. Ring, welcome to the podcast.
Melinda Ring: Thanks so much, Julie. I'm thrilled to be here with you.
Julie Michelson: This is one of my absolute favorite topics. Um, I never get bored of talking about the importance of food as medicine. But I love to find out, you know, share with listeners a little bit more about your story and how you got to be, you know, in involved a very involved in integrative medicine. Um, because I, I think most of us, When we were young, this wasn't necessarily maybe a doctor.
Yes, but the integrative piece is always interesting.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting because I think there's a lot of different paths to the, to what we're gonna talk about. And one is integrative medicine, and then the other is culinary [Page//00:02:00] medicine. And do you need a drink? Sorry. I'm happy to pause if you need a Okay. Um, yeah, anytime.
Julie Michelson: Coughing off Mike there. Sorry.
Melinda Ring: No, no, no problem. Um, So, you know, I think from an integrative perspective, when I think back, I grew up.
With a dad who's a pathologist, but he was probably one of the only holistic pathologists. And we used to, you know, when I would've a headache, he'd have me visualize it and tell him what color it was and all of this until it went away. Um, but, but then at the same time, I was going in on the weekend and helping him do autopsies.
So like a sort of unusual hobby as a eight-year-old. Um, and so I think like from. Just this introduction to medicine as being more than really just the physical, which is what you get during an autopsy, right? Like the, there's definitely an essence missing there. [Page//00:03:00] Um, but then seeing that there's more to health than just taking a pill when you have a headache.
I think that led me down this path to looking at different ways of healing rather than, you know, take a pill, do surgery, like that kind of thing.
Julie Michelson: diagnosis prescription.
Melinda Ring: Exactly this, then that and, and then for culinary medicine, you know, I, I grew up, um, in the arrow when it was all like quick chocolate milk and, you know, dinners and whole, you know, wonder Bread was so good for you.
And, um, and I also grew up where, you know, it was a traditional time when mom cooked meals and, you know, the. I didn't learn how to cook frankly. You know, it was, I didn't know how.
Julie Michelson: served. Yeah.
Melinda Ring: yeah, I was like, ah. And Home EC wasn't really there anymore. And so, um, uh, between. The summer before [Page//00:04:00] medical school, I went and I begged it to be a chef.
They had a job posting for a sous chef at this really fancy restaurant and I begged and begged and kept coming back and being persistent until I got the job. And then I learned, you know, how to cook, although it was for like 50 people at a time. And um, so I think I had this appreciation for the art of cooking that started at that point when you could see how to make people happy through food.
Julie Michelson: Yes. I love that. I, uh, grew up my first, first and many jobs were in the restaurant business. My stepfather had restaurants. So, um, yeah, there is something about I. Even, even if you don't really take to the cooking piece that just that love of feeding people and being creative and, uh, I love to cook, so I love culinary medicine.
Um, I, I think it's. We need to be having these conversations, you know? Um, and I grew up in the same, [Page//00:05:00] you know, the, I think the beginning of food not being food really. Um, and so we're hoping to shift it back to where people are eating real food.
Melinda Ring: Absolutely. And yeah, and, and so much happened over those eras too that have led to so many of the problems with the autoimmune disease now. Like even the changes in farming practices and, um, you know, the soil not being, being overworked and, and these monocultures of plants losing nutrients and the way animals were raised.
Like, there's just so much that's just contributed now to this, um, Explosion of autoimmune disease we're seeing
Julie Michelson: I, I couldn't agree more. I think it, it's such a huge topic, um, and there are so many layers, layers to it. I remember when I was di. Diagnosed in my early thirties, they were, you know, which was a little over 20 years ago, [Page//00:06:00] um, they were saying, you know, oh, you're so young and now, wow, if you can make it to your thirties without an autoimmune diagnosis, you're doing something right.
So it, it's just, it's insane the explosion. And same with a little off topic, but I used to teach, um, autistic children in the ni early nineties when it was rare. That's so same, same thing. So let's dig in. People ask me all the time, and I'm guessing they ask you, well, you know, what should I eat? Just tell me what to eat.
Um, so what is your approach? Um, and, and I, I think I'm really interested to learn because I, I get the feeling we, there are certain things we differ on, which is always fun and, and always a learning opportunity.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, we can arm rustle it
Julie Michelson: Yes,
Melinda Ring: Um, yeah, so. Well, so I, I, [Page//00:07:00] yeah, I think like you, so I think we'll agree on this point. I think it does need to be personalized. So I don't think, for example, every single person who has an autoimmune disease needs to avoid gluten. Um, as an example, like I, I think, uh, many people do, but maybe not everybody.
And I think that, um, You know, and I think that every autoimmune condition may have its own tweak on a typical anti-inflammatory approach. So when I think broadly about what I recommend to my patients with autoimmune disease, it's an anti-inflammatory diet. The issue is that, that that gets defined so differently by people.
Uh, and so then I think it's a matter of talking to somebody about where they are. What's feasible for them? You know, where are they starting? Where can we move them to? I do favor plant forward diets. Um, For some people that, that may include a little bit of meat. It may be more [Page//00:08:00] pescatarian. But, um, you know, I did my TED talk on this and it's like, to me it's like every plate should be half plants and, uh, at least, at least, at least half plans.
And I'm plant based, so, you know, that's, I tell people this is what I do, so I'm, I'm, um, preaching what I'm actually doing myself. Um,
Julie Michelson: and I love that you said plant forward because again, like anti-inflammatory. This plant, you know, the idea of a plant-based diet, I. To some people that could be vegan and to some pe, you know, and, and I say I have a plant-based diet, but I do eat clean animal protein. Um, but my plate is covered in vegetables, you know?
Um, I like the, i, the, you know, kind of if you think of the meat as a condiment and not, uh, you know, um, so I think anywhere in there that you fall, um, You
Melinda Ring: Yeah, I agree. [Page//00:09:00] So we're probably not as far apart as you think. I'm
Julie Michelson: no, no. Yeah,
Melinda Ring: don't, um, eat red meat, nor does my family. But, um, Uh, but my son eats poultry and that's fine. And you know, my husband eats fish and, um, then my other son and I are plant-based, but we'll eat a little bit of, you know, some eggs and dairy.
But I think you're right. You know it all when you, when people are going for that other half of the plate, um, or plant meat as a condiment kind of thing, the quality of the meat helps determine how inflammatory it is. And so if it's, uh, uh, pasture raised, how that from the meat comes from, then it's gonna be very different from a cow that was corn, you know.
Shelfed corn feed and, and, uh,
Julie Michelson: Antibiotics and all, all the things
Melinda Ring: all those
Julie Michelson: poop.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, exactly. So you know. [Page//00:10:00] Yeah. So I, no, I'm not here to them.
Julie Michelson: No, no. And then that's why I really, I was excited to have the conversation because, um, but yeah, it, and I I love that you highlighted the quality. I, I drive on the way to the clinic. I drive past a feed lot and there is no way you could ever get me to eat any part of an animal that, from there, I mean, it's just, it's so horrible.
And that's, The majority of people that are eating meat, that's what they're eating. Um, and, and so, you know, there's, it is, it's a huge difference and the studies are really impressive. Um,
Melinda Ring: and it's just also a planetary kind of thing. It's a humanitarian kind of thing, you know, like I think there's a whole energy between how we're
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Melinda Ring: creating food that we, you know, that nourishes us and.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. Absolutely. So [Page//00:11:00] broad, how do you define anti-inflammatory then? Or, or maybe not define, but when you say an anti-inflammatory diet, what are you talking about? Other than loads of veggies?
Melinda Ring: Yeah, it's a lot of that, you know, it's Omega three s, as I'm sure you've talked to your people about, um, uh, It, it's, you know, we talk, it, it again, it depends where they are. It's because we're talking culinary medicine too. It's not just what's on your plate, but it's how you prepare what you're eating. You know, what are the methods of food that you're eating?
What is the quality of the food that you're eating? And, you know, so deep frying versus, um, air frying will have a difference. Um, eating, uh, Eating nightshades in a raw form may have a different effect on the body than eating them when they've been stewed or cooked. And so I, I, I don't have any hard lines.
I [Page//00:12:00] think we, I try to individualize it with most people who I see for. In the early phases of coming to see me, um, will oftentimes do an elimination diet, sometimes food sensitivity testing to help narrow in, but oftentimes an elimination diet because as you know, you know, that's the gold standard. Um, the, the concern of course is that in an elimination diet, somebody may do an elimination, add back in the food and not notice a physical difference, but is it still causing something?
Physiologically, like increasing inflammation or increasing permeability in the guts at a, at a subclinical level. Um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of my general approach is very clamp forward. You know, the classic Mediterranean diet or whatever is cult culturally appropriate for somebody. And, um, focusing on quality organic as much as possible.
Non G m O as much as possible, um, and high [Page//00:13:00] in those anti-inflammatory foods. And an, uh, phytonutrients, antioxidants, and omega-3 S
Julie Michelson: Love it lot, lots of rainbow eating going on.
Melinda Ring: Yes. Yeah, rainbow.
Julie Michelson: Um, and, and you know, it is, it's so, please, somebody said to me the other day, you make the best salads.
Melinda Ring: Ooh, yeah.
Julie Michelson: And I'm like, they're just sa, you know? But yeah, they have lots of different things in every color and you know, it, it's just, it's fun to introduce to people things that they might not think to be including in their diet.
Um, and you mentioned,
Melinda Ring: Enjoy a salad actually.
Julie Michelson: Yes.
Melinda Ring: actually be very filling and tasty
Julie Michelson: And nutrient dents and not iceberg lettuce with ranch dressing on it
Melinda Ring: right, right.
Julie Michelson: like that.
Melinda Ring: Although I do have to say, and maybe this is from growing up in the seventies and having this for dinner almost every night there was a part of me that still really finds iceberg lettuce
Julie Michelson: oh, me [Page//00:14:00] too. That was the only lettuce we ate.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. It was the only lettuce and there's still something when I eat it, which maybe it brings back those memories of sitting around the dinner table
Julie Michelson: you. And I'm not saying you can never eat iceberg lettuce. I'm just saying that's not the kind of salad I'm talking about. And you know, a lot of people don't drink enough water and iceberg is loaded with water. So no, um, we're not, we're not hating on iceberg.
It's just that, that variety
Melinda Ring: have the Iceberg Commission coming
Julie Michelson: Yeah, the deeper colors, you know, all the things. Um, I love that. And I, I I like that you highlighted, um, I take a unique approach to reintroductions for the very reason you were just saying so often either people aren't doing them methodically enough, um, or. They're having a little bit of something and they can't feel anything and they don't notice, and, and so I, I kind of, not kind of, [Page//00:15:00] we kind, we go heavy and hard and several days in a row.
And that had originally started just from my own experience of their Earth foods. I can eat once and I have, I can't feel it
Melinda Ring: Right.
Julie Michelson: if I eat the, if I eat the leftovers or I eat them two days in a row or, you know, Um, I definitely feel it, and obviously doing what I do, I, I therefore know that means they're inflammatory the whole time.
Um, and, and so, but the other side I see is that people do an elimination diet and they feel great and they wanna stay in that elimination phase.
Melinda Ring: yes.
Julie Michelson: And, and, you know, they're just overs restricted.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, I see that as a big problem when, when people don't have the guidance like you're describing on doing the reintroduction and you know, that's what's now being commonly publicized as this orthorexia where people become scared of
Julie Michelson: And I went through [Page//00:16:00] it. I totally went through it. I wasn't guided. I was, I, you know, I, my method of healing was kind of spaghetti at the wall. Um, I dunno. And this is why I have a podcast cuz I learned a lot from listening to podcasts and I would try things. Um, and, and I definitely. Have a, a more variety in my diet now than I did even five years ago because that, you know, the rigid worked.
Um, and I didn't know, I didn't, I never really did a proper, I, I just took stuff away. It wasn't really an elimination phase of a plan. It was, um, and so it, it can be a really real thing. I'm an autoimmune paleo coach and people think. A I p first of all, is a diet. It's not, it's a healing plan. It's a framework.
Um, and that elimination phase is supposed to be a phase
Melinda Ring: Right.
Julie Michelson: that's not, you know, don't eat all of these things for the rest of your [Page//00:17:00] life. Um, and
Melinda Ring: And the other, yeah, I mean, the other thing is when the body heals,
Julie Michelson: yes,
Melinda Ring: Things that you couldn't tolerate before, you may be able to, at least in moderation or in small amounts. And you know, and, and I tell people that too, even when they are, if they're not celiac, but they feel better eating gluten, you know, I'll tell them like, yeah, uh, you can occasionally have that Chicago pizza or go have that birthday cake at
Julie Michelson: York pizza.
Melinda Ring: birthday.
Julie Michelson: Sorry.
Melinda Ring: Uh, you, you know, you can, you can do that. Just know you may not feel that great the next day and, um, you're, but at least you're empowered to make the decisions. And, and,
Julie Michelson: And, and have an understanding of what your consequences are. So it is, it is a choice, not a mistake, or a slip or a, you know, we do the same thing. It's like, what's a, you know, what are the never foods? What are the, sometimes, and maybe [Page//00:18:00] it's like I. This is a rare occasion. It's a sometimes food. Um, but it's certainly not gonna be the night before I'm giving a presentation or have a big meeting or, you know, like it, we, it's really good to know the consequences.
Um, and I have, I, I will eat tomatoes like two, three times a year cuz I love them. I grew up in New Jersey.
Melinda Ring: so healthy. I mean,
Julie Michelson: They are. They are. And and so, no. No, but I know, you know, I know for my body, kinda, and again it goes back to if I'm gonna take a little bit of a hit, I know I'm driving inflammation and I am, I try to be pretty careful about it's gotta be worth it.
Melinda Ring: So do you, do you feel like all of the NA nitrates should be avoided for all autoimmune
Julie Michelson: No,
Melinda Ring: Oh, okay.
Julie Michelson: Uhuh.
Melinda Ring: personal for you
Julie Michelson: it is, it is. I, I think there are things, um, You know, [Page//00:19:00] sugar isn't something anybody needs to intentionally include, and we're all going to, we're all gonna get some sugar here and there, but, but like you said, they're, you know, they're nutrient dense, the night shades. Um, and so same thing for a long time I avoided all of them and just thought, oh, they're a problem for me.
And I'm still, and, and it, this is years in and I'm still like, okay, I really wanna try. Cooked, you know, I'm gonna bake a tomato sauce. There was a time where I couldn't, I couldn't handle that. And I have healed so much and I do have celiac and so I know my gut was a mess and I, you know, I know there's a reason why a lot of things were a problem.
Um, but I always, the nutrient dense foods, I always want people to, to eat, include them if they can, for sure.
Melinda Ring: And that's an example where the culinary medicine part can come into play. Because if you're doing it, so, you know, for example, peeling it, the peeling [Page//00:20:00] tomatoes and peppers, taking the seeds out helps decrease those alkaloids. Cooking helps, you know, decrease, um, or break down some of the things like the, the soine and potatoes.
And so all of those can help. Um, Instead of just, you know, eating, which I love, like, uh, eating raw, those little raw grape tomatoes,
Julie Michelson: yeah.
Melinda Ring: right. Um, but, you know, making a sauce, especially if you pee on DC, that can help make it much more tolerable for people who are, have autoimmune disease.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. And that's where it is worth, you know, really being experimental. It's the same thing with, with dairy, you know, it's so easy and I, I grew up, my family was in the dairy business
Melinda Ring: Oh, wow.
Julie Michelson: and I for a long time, Thought I couldn't handle any dairy and I knew it was inflammatory for me. Um, and then, you know, as I learned more and traveled the, the, the road a little longer, [Page//00:21:00] um, you know, I learned, hey, some people can tolerate sheep and go and, you know, even if it's not cow and, um, I'm somebody who was, I could always do grassfed butter. Um, my daughter can't,
Melinda Ring: Oh,
Julie Michelson: it's, it's really interest and she's, I, I think that's, if you don't have an allergy, that's more rare. You know, most people can get away with some grass fed butter.
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: I. Um, but you know, years in, I found out, oh my gosh, I, goat cheese is totally fine for me. And these days, you know, you can get goat, cheddar and goat whatsoever.
I mean, we joke, I make a mean lasagna. That is, you know, no cow dairy, no grains, no, no tomato, no. Everyone's like, how is it, you know, how. It tastes really tastes like lasagna. It's amazing. Um, so, but I have fun with it, right? It's not, it's not, I, I think that if we shift our brain out of this [Page//00:22:00] deprivation, like, okay, I just listed all those things I can't have am my lasagna, which are what most people think of as lasagna.
Um, I can enjoy lasagna and it's delicious.
Melinda Ring: Right. There's so many alternative ways to prepare things, and I think once people remove. And get, you know, clear their system of it, they can actually start to taste and enjoy food so much better, so much more, especially once you get out things like processed foods and sugar, like you were saying. Um, the taste buds regenerate and, you know, things, things are like, oh my gosh, this is delicious and you never would've liked it before.
So,
Julie Michelson: I had a client once ask me, you know, literally, she was totally serious. Were strawberries always this sweet? Like yes they were. You just couldn't taste it.
Melinda Ring: Right. Yeah. To me.
Julie Michelson: it's, it is. It's incredible. So I know we both, [Page//00:23:00] you're right, we have a lot of shared, um, You know, just outlook and approach with, you know, you with your patients and me, with my clients.
And, and it does always, I love that you keep highlighting like you meet them where they are, right? I have, I work with clients that are men in their sixties that don't cook,
Melinda Ring: Mm-hmm.
Julie Michelson: you know, all the way to people who love cooking. They just have no idea, you know, how and what to be cooking for themselves. Um, So where do, if you, you have somebody who's coming to you and they're living on processed food, they don't cook, you know, haven't cooked, where do you even start with them?
Like what's your first uplevel that you have them do?
Melinda Ring: Well, I, I'll give them some recommendations, but I'll tell you that I really, um, for people like that and I, I think coaches, people who can coach them and, and really support [Page//00:24:00] them, uh, it's such a huge benefit to helping people with behavior change. Um, There are a lot of people, uh, who don't know how to cook or don't like to cook.
And I, you know, and, and the other thing we have to do is meet them where they are in terms of what's feasible. So, you know, if I have a mom who's working two jobs, or I have, um, somebody who doesn't have access to food or doesn't have financial means, so, you know, for example, it's easy for me to say. Um, sure go to Whole Foods and buy the precut vegetables and Trader Joe's where they have it all prepared.
Like that's a great way to start. But, um, and, and so yes, that would be for the right person. That would be great. For somebody else that may just put them be like, oh, this. Person isn't talking my language. And for them it may be, you know, recognizing that, for example, um, frozen vegetables without [Page//00:25:00] added stuff in it is a great way to start increasing it.
That doesn't require a lot of cooking. Um,
Julie Michelson: Or cutting
Melinda Ring: or cutting. Yeah, exactly. And they, and they can be very affordable and they get frozen at their peak place and, you know, can hold onto their nutrients. So I think things like that. Um, I think focusing on, if I, when I teach culinary medicine, we always start with knife skills and to be.
If you're gonna fill your plate with plants or make these delicious salad, you were talking about feeling comfortable with a knife and having a good knife, um, is actually probably one of the best things because I've had, I've had students where I'm teaching them and when they come to a class and they use a sharp knife, And they actually can slice through a vegetable easily instead of hacking at it because they're using this one that's been in their drawer banging against everything.
They're like, oh, cutting vegetables isn't so hard. Um, so I think, [Page//00:26:00] you know, teaching skills like basic knife skills, batch cooking, so it's not so overwhelming. I think that's a huge thing to cook larger portions and store the leftovers in the fridge or freezer. We'll talk about that. Um, simple recipes, trying to give them some.
Guidelines for easy to follow, limited number of ingredients, kinds of things. Um, and uh, yeah, you know, I think all of those are, are the kinds of things. And then, and then helping them just understand what they have in their kitchen already and what might make it a little bit easier for them. What tools might make it easier for them to be successful, what things they might wanna just have in the pantry so that it's easy to throw something easy together with four ingredients like.
You know, one fresh ingredient and the rest is already, you already have kind of thing so that you're, you're not just starting from scratch looking at him being like, okay, I guess I'll order in again.
Julie Michelson: I love that. Then that's, [Page//00:27:00] I, I think to start with, like you said, basic knife skills. Um, and it is true for people that haven't cooked or aren't from a cooking family, never worked in a restaurant. I. Probably aren't using a good knife and probably not a sharp knife. And it's,
Melinda Ring: And they don't know how to do it. Yeah.
Julie Michelson: And, and I would say if you wanna know, if your knife is sharp, try to slice a tomato.
Like it's not necessarily can it get through the hardest food like you want, you want something that can just, you know, cut like butter.
Melinda Ring: And the way that we've always, I've always done it with students too, is have them just take a piece of paper and if you cut through it and it just slices smoothly, you're good to go. But if you try to cut through it, it's ja it like that's a real, you know, you need to sharpen your knife. And, um, and there's so many good videos online for people who are.
New to [Page//00:28:00] cooking to get you comfortable. Um, so like really so many that walk you through free videos. Even like New York Times has a whole series of like knife skills and, um, so I'll, I'll encourage people to do that too. And now, now, you know, I don't, we don't lead these at Northwestern, these shared medical visits.
But there is this, there are a growing number of, um, medical appointments that you can bill to insurance and, uh, that are getting covered by commercial insurance and Medicare, um, where the, the group visit, for example, for celiac disease or inflammatory conditions, they come together and there's some educational components, some discussion, and then some.
Hands on cooking, or at least a cooking demo. And so that's a great movement that we're seeing in Madison in general.
Julie Michelson: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think there's [Page//00:29:00] so much value for the patients, um, because it, it, I think that's why there are, I always say, you know, my, my partner, the doc is, is the, you know what to do and the coach is the how to do it. Um, and it doesn't have to be a coach, but whoever it is helping, you know, educate and lead the classes without the how, and I'm sure you see it.
Well, you're giving the how as well,
Melinda Ring: Probably do to some degree, but you know, it depends on
Julie Michelson: people just keep coming back in the same place stuck because, you know, it's like, oh, I know you told me to eat real food. I don't even know what real food is. So, um, yeah, so I, I love that. Um, I think that that is part of what will change wellness and, and healthcare.
True
Melinda Ring: and hopefully, hopefully coaches will, you know, start becoming widely covered by insurance too,
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And we're getting there and there's codes. Now [Page//00:30:00] it's, you know, it's, it has to start somewhere, right?
Melinda Ring: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. The VA did a great job of, you know, pushing to get, um, a code that, but that level three code, and hopefully it'll become a Level one code soon.
Julie Michelson: exactly. It it well from your lips, right?
Melinda Ring: yes.
Julie Michelson: So I know you said there, there's no, um, across the board. Never ever. Foods for people. Um, you know that even for some occasional gluten might not be the end of the world. Um, are there things that you like just off the top of your head, in general, of course with the exception of if somebody has a sensitivity, um, but you know, are there foods that you think of like, okay, if you have autoimmunity, you really should be including these things in your diet?
Cuz they're just these power players.
Melinda Ring: Well, you already mentioned the rainbow. That's really the [Page//00:31:00] big thing. And then for me, the omega three s, um, in whatever form, whether it's from seeds or from sardines or salmon or whatever, whatever your. Omega source of choices, um, and. You're not healthy fats, you know, so it's not, not a low fat diet. And then, um, and then for people, I think also anti-inflammatory herbs and spices because that helps both with flavor, but also the really concentrated sources of nutrients.
So things like, you know, turmeric and ginger and cinnamon and garlic. Um, I think all of those, and in general, you know, I know I said there's. Can have things once in a while, but, you know, if I were to give my like, these are inflammatory, don't eat these unless you really, really, really have to. Um, that would be things like processed meats, like sausages and hot dogs [Page//00:32:00] and, um, Deep fried foods and of course anything with trans fats and, um, and really limiting refined carbohydrates as much as possible, like the white bread and the donuts and those things that are caused, um, issues with insulin, which is so directly correlated with increasing inflammation in the body.
So I have the things that I tell my people not to eat, but, um, yeah.
Julie Michelson: But you're just gentler than I am.
Melinda Ring: Might, I might be a little gentler. Maybe
Julie Michelson: in the beginning of the conversation. Well, I'm gonna sound a little nicer, but it, it's, you and I both, I mean, speak the same language a as far as it's about empowerment. Like it's, it's not a, I tell people, and that's why I like the reintroductions. Uh, if I'm working with a client, there's no way that three years from now they're gonna hear my voice in their head saying, you know, don't eat gluten.
It's [Page//00:33:00] inflammatory. No. They need to feel, what does gluten do for them? Somebody said to me, oh my gosh, there's no way you haven't had gluten in 15 years. Like at all. You don't cheat at all. And I'm like, well, you knew what happened to me when I like it. It's not really magical. I get that sick. It's not worth it.
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: I know. And so that to me is part of that empowerment is really getting to a place where you can figure out, I dunno, what foods are triggering you
Melinda Ring: Right, and
Julie Michelson: what foods make you feel amazing.
Melinda Ring: Yes, and it takes a little time to get there, but, um, it's easier when people have the quick, quick win and start to feel better or start to see that puffiness go down and, um, just feel more comfortable in their clothes and their joints feel better. You know, I've had people who have come in for, um, inflammatory bowel type stuff, [Page//00:34:00] and then they're, you know, they're on, we're working towards this anti-inflammatory diet.
Um, of different sorts. You know, it could be more of like a FOD map diet. It could be more, um, of a more standard classic elimination diet. But then like, oh, I didn't know, like my skin got better and, oh, I didn't realize I was aching. I thought I was just getting older. And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's amazing how these things affect you.
But when they came in, they were just like, I want my gut to feel better. And then they, you know, take note of these other things and that's where it becomes so much easier to stick with it. Um,
Julie Michelson: That's all the reinforcement we need is to start to feel better. You know? I mean it really is. It's, it's amazing. Um, and, and, Again, that's, it's so motivating. I remember when I was changing diet and I had a friend who said, oh, I'm really starting to worry about you. You don't eat food. Like, you know, you barely eat.
And I'm like, I eat so much real [Page//00:35:00] food. And, and this, this was a woman who was living, I'm not even kidding you on diet Dr. Pepper.
Melinda Ring: Oh my
Julie Michelson: And Doritos, you know, like, I'm like, I, all I eat is real food, you know? Um, but it was like, I was like, do you remember when I could barely get outta bed?
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: Like, I, I don't understand now you're worried about me.
You should have been worried about me back then. Um, so it's, it just, we just have to change our, our thinking. And like you said, once we start to get those small wins, We really, the, the gains and sometimes it's slow. Sometimes it's really slow. I have a client right now who has RA and she has a, an autoimmune gut disorder.
And, and everybody's different. Some people are like, no, I'm wanna jump in and do the elimination. And she was like, that is so overwhelming. Let's work toward it. I said, let's literally just start [Page//00:36:00] paying attention to gluten. Let's just start there. Literally her, her guts. And I'm like, how has nobody ever told you to try going gluten free for uc and ra?
And, you know, um, but that's,
Melinda Ring: yeah, you bring up this great point with both of those stories to me, which is, um, navigating social situations and navigating healthcare because, um, I have had certainly patients with inflammatory bowel disease. This is insane to me, but who have been told by their, you know, noted, you know, well-known gastroenterologist diet makes no difference to your dis
Julie Michelson: They still are saying that it, it's,
Melinda Ring: with cancer who have been told that.
It just, so, so I think navigating that can be challenging and navigating social situations, um, when you're going out, you know, for dinner when you're going to somebody's house [Page//00:37:00] and, um, you know, Making sure to try to choose restaurants that have autoimmune friendly options. Communicating to friends if you're going to their house or bringing your own if you need to.
And you know, hope the right friend will understand and not take it personally. Um, so I think that is a challenge for people when they're starting on this journey.
Julie Michelson: Definitely in the beginning. Um, and, and it is a fascinating thing. Other people really are, Interested in, you know, aren't you gonna eat that? Why aren't you eating that? I, I don't know why other people care are so invested in, in, you know, what we eat. Um, we're going away this weekend to, to visit family.
And it was, you know, can Julie eat this? If I can Julie eat that, don't worry about Julie, Julie worry about herself. It's, you know, but I'm years into this and it doesn't make me uncomfortable. And I appreciate, you know, people trying to accommodate me. Um, You know, and, and luckily [Page//00:38:00] at this point, I'm not surrounded by anybody who is offended if I can't eat what they're, what they're serving.
Um, but it, it takes time. I, I think it's a huge, I don't know that I've ever worked with a client that that does, doesn't come up in the beginning until they really, you know, do feel empowered and, and understand, you know, why they're avoiding certain things.
Melinda Ring: Do you, do you find it helpful to have their significant other come in or, and then also I'm curious how you manage, cuz I, I think one of the biggest challenges is when it's somebody who has to change their diet, but they're also cooking for others like kids and other thing. What, what's your approach to those?
Julie Michelson: my approach and, and it usually takes a little time. Um, I am not a proponent of double cooking. Uh, it could be now adding, you know, something a another, you know, if it's a I, although I don't, [Page//00:39:00] the kids don't really need a lot of the starch either. But, um, you know, slowly changing some of, some of those things.
Um, I have. And often, and it's usually the woman who's cooking often, you know, she feels like she has to double cook or triple cook or, and doesn't have the energy to do any of it single time. Eventually the whole family is eating the same way and they all love it. They all learn to love real food and the kids are excited about packing healthy lunches and, you know, and, and that to me is the biggest gift in what I do.
Is not just helping somebody recoup their health, but oh my gosh, now their children aren't growing up on Twinkies, you
Melinda Ring: Yeah, what a gift,
Julie Michelson: Yeah. They don't have to relearn, they don't have to get sick and relearn, you know, decades later.
Melinda Ring: And they've, you know, there's such a genetic component to, there's environmental [Page//00:40:00] and genetic and other, you know, specs and, and so they, they're setting up their kids for success, um, and maybe even, uh, delaying or preventing the onset of an autoimmune condition.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And, and I think that that is such a, you know, it is, yes. Genetics, yes. Environment and, and what people are. Often just attributing to genetics cuz my mom had, and my aunt had, and, but you were all eating the same way. You were all using the same, you know, personal care products, you were all, so it is not, it's never just genetics.
Um, and so, and again, I, I, I say it like, oh, it's so simple, you know, don't double cook. It's a process. And again, start where you're comfortable. Um, But literally I have not had one family that hasn't [Page//00:41:00] all eventually ended up on board really willingly.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, well, it's a healthy diet, right? So
Julie Michelson: Yeah.
Melinda Ring: and
Julie Michelson: And it tastes good.
Melinda Ring: there's that transition period,
Julie Michelson: There is, there is for sure.
Um, I, I always think about when I, when I was a kid, um, I had a friend who was, she was the youngest of 10. And obviously very big family, um, her parents and it's, I don't know why it stuck with me. Like even then I knew there was something to it and, and now, uh, I, I just think it's gold. Her parents were brilliant.
Um, they would, when they like, would cook a vegetable or something that they wanted the kids to eat the first time they made it, they would make a really small portion and they would say, this is just for us. Just, just for the adults. You, you can have a taste, but it's just for us. And literally that was how they got their kids to eat everything.
Melinda Ring: [Page//00:42:00] That's really funny.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And so I, I, I,
Melinda Ring: on your kids with
Julie Michelson: Well, but I, I think the reason it stuck was I kind of realized like, oh, there is something to this thinking. I'm not gonna like it. Um, or, you know, if they want me to eat it, it must be healthy and I don't want it kind of deal. Um, and, and so, yeah, and I, I don't remember ever seeing iceberg lettuce at her house actually. Oh, so it's, it's, you know, so I, I love them and I highlight again, let's start where you are. Um, and, and I think I'm guessing you have a similar approach just because we seem very aligned in this. We tend to focus on avoid this and take that out and, you know, eliminate this and, and so, you know, if you're somebody who's starting and you're not on a real foods diet, just start adding in before you ever start taking away, you know, start [Page//00:43:00] playing with some more vegetables.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, that's always my first go-to is just the eat, eat more plants kind of thing, because once you fill up at least half a plate with colorful fruits and vegetables, non starchy ones, you, you have room for less. And so just automatically you're gonna start making cha, you know, healthy changes and start feeling better.
Julie Michelson: And you can even as an adult, eat your vegetables first. I went through that with my mom when I was helping her learn and adjust her eating. Um, she would say, well, I just, but I, I just can't eat that many vegetables. I'm full. And I'm like, well, you don't have to eat a ribeye first. You know? Um, and so we joke around here, I love vegetables.
I don't ever. Think like, oh, I have to get these in. Um, but even if you do feel that way, then start with them first.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, I, I mean, this is a little off topic, but I think what too many people are dealing [Page//00:44:00] with right now because of the diets that, that they've been eating is a lack of awareness of hunger. And, um, so it's almost the opposite problem is that they'll just keep going and that usually is in processed foods and sugar and, um, yeah.
Julie Michelson: And that's where that adding in, you know, the healthy fats keep you full.
Melinda Ring: yes.
Julie Michelson: Um, but you're right, we have to almost re, you know, learn satiety and, you know, this is what it feels like to be full. And I'm good. Um, somebody was asking me the other day, well, what do you snack on? And I'm, and I'm not antis snack.
I think if you need to, you know, when you're adjusting things and if you need a snack, like have, I, I don't por portion control. Um, I, I think of like, like ratios, like, you know, cover your plate in the veggies and, and it takes care of itself. Um, but I don't really snack often because at, at this [Page//00:45:00] point, because I eat a, I have a lot of healthy fats in my diet.
I'm not. I don't get hungry an hour after I eat. Like I just don't,
Melinda Ring: Yeah, and protein keeps you satiated too. And
Julie Michelson: and fats,
Melinda Ring: um, and you know, that's, that is, you know, one of the things where there's this whole myth of like, well, if I only eat plants then I won't get enough protein. Which of course is totally not true. Um, very easy to get plenty, even if you're a weight trainer. Um, so, you know, I
Julie Michelson: But again, if you're eating real food and that's I think another. You know, um, if you're eating processed vegan food, that's not really food. You're not probably gonna get enough protein.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. Or, or you're getting the protein, but it's with a bunch of other not so great stuff. Yeah.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. I love it. So we've covered so many things and you've already given so many tips, but [Page//00:46:00] listeners know that at the end of every episode, I always ask for
Melinda Ring: Oh no, I didn't get a wording for this. Okay. Alright.
Julie Michelson: throwing you under the bus. It could be something you've already said, but really it's, it just comes down to what's one thing listeners can do today to start to improve their health?
Melinda Ring: Well I know you've already hammered on the. Rainbow. So I'm not gonna do that. I, I'm gonna go with what we talked about, which is, um, make sure you're, you know, get comfortable with, for food, not for other things. Get comfortable with a knife. Um, you know, remember,
Julie Michelson: love the disclaimer Melinda
Melinda Ring: uh, there's too much violence in the world, uh, but. Um, yeah, I, you know, I, I, there's a, a phrase I've heard, you know, which is love the food that loves you back. And, um, and so I think that shift to that and cut up your vegetables and for have them precut in the, [Page//00:47:00] in the refrigerator. So it's easy. It's at eye level.
Easy thing to go for. Um, just for me, it's all about making. These changes easy because we get busy and we get hungry. And then other priorities, uh, and that sugar buzz or, um, you know, the, the snack, the easy snack is the easy choice. So we have to make healthy, easy.
Julie Michelson: I love it. We have to make healthy easy. I knew you couldn't give just one, by the way, but it's okay because most people can. But that is so true. I always tell people, you know, when I'm trying to get people to prep, same thing. I have so many clients that are like, oh, I buy vegetables, you know, and then I throw them
Melinda Ring: And they go back.
Julie Michelson: bad, you know? Um, but I, I say this, even me, like it's not, it's not that those of us that do this some day in and day out or really any different, we just already are, are prepping. I can either, [Page//00:48:00] Make a salad or eat a salad at lunchtime. I don't have enough time in my day to, to do both, so it's gotta be prepped ahead of time.
Um, so I I love that.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, yeah. When I'm in the middle of patients and I have half an hour, which then becomes 15 minutes,
Julie Michelson: right.
Melinda Ring: I'm not gonna go start cutting vegetables and everything to make a healthy meal, and so it's either grab a snack bar or have something ready to eat that's healthier.
Julie Michelson: Amazing, and, and we will have all the links, but for people that listen on the go like I do, where's the best place to find you?
Melinda Ring: Well for you can find all my links at, at dr melinda ring.com and then that'll link to my YouTube and my Instagram, I think for quick wins. And hits. Uh, you know, Instagram's the place to go. Um, but I'm growing my YouTube channel, so, but if you go to Dr. Melinda Ring, you'll get links to all of them.
Julie Michelson: [Page//00:49:00] Amazing. Amazing.
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Well, thanks so much for having me,
Julie Michelson: Oh my gosh. thank you so much. This has been so much fun. I knew I was gonna learn a lot. I, I just, um, I get really obviously, geeked out and excited when we get to have conversations where people can hear in other voices a similar approach. Um, and I, I love what you're doing and I love this idea of culinary medicine.
I think that is, Medicine. Right. Hippocrates? Like it's, this is not new.
Melinda Ring: Medicine. Absolutely. Alright, well, so you thought we were gonna be further apart,
Julie Michelson: I did,
Melinda Ring: close
Julie Michelson: We are really pretty close. I just may be a little more of a stick in the month than you are. That's okay. I, I can deal with that.
Melinda Ring: Well, I'm a little more anti than you are, so you know, that's, yeah.
Julie Michelson: It's true. So, but again, it, it's all about what serves each one of us. [Page//00:50:00] Um, and so I, I just am really grateful for everything you shared today.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been great to be here.
Julie Michelson: For everyone listening. Remember, you can get the transcripts and show notes by visiting inspiredliving.show. I hope you had a great time and enjoyed this episode as much as I did. We'll see you next week.
She has an active clinical practice while also being an [Page//00:01:00] educator, researcher and author. In today's conversation, we're discussing culinary medicine and food is medicine for autoimmune empowerment.
Dr. Ring, welcome to the podcast.
Melinda Ring: Thanks so much, Julie. I'm thrilled to be here with you.
Julie Michelson: This is one of my absolute favorite topics. Um, I never get bored of talking about the importance of food as medicine. But I love to find out, you know, share with listeners a little bit more about your story and how you got to be, you know, in involved a very involved in integrative medicine. Um, because I, I think most of us, When we were young, this wasn't necessarily maybe a doctor.
Yes, but the integrative piece is always interesting.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting because I think there's a lot of different paths to the, to what we're gonna talk about. And one is integrative medicine, and then the other is culinary [Page//00:02:00] medicine. And do you need a drink? Sorry. I'm happy to pause if you need a Okay. Um, yeah, anytime.
Julie Michelson: Coughing off Mike there. Sorry.
Melinda Ring: No, no, no problem. Um, So, you know, I think from an integrative perspective, when I think back, I grew up.
With a dad who's a pathologist, but he was probably one of the only holistic pathologists. And we used to, you know, when I would've a headache, he'd have me visualize it and tell him what color it was and all of this until it went away. Um, but, but then at the same time, I was going in on the weekend and helping him do autopsies.
So like a sort of unusual hobby as a eight-year-old. Um, and so I think like from. Just this introduction to medicine as being more than really just the physical, which is what you get during an autopsy, right? Like the, there's definitely an essence missing there. [Page//00:03:00] Um, but then seeing that there's more to health than just taking a pill when you have a headache.
I think that led me down this path to looking at different ways of healing rather than, you know, take a pill, do surgery, like that kind of thing.
Julie Michelson: diagnosis prescription.
Melinda Ring: Exactly this, then that and, and then for culinary medicine, you know, I, I grew up, um, in the arrow when it was all like quick chocolate milk and, you know, dinners and whole, you know, wonder Bread was so good for you.
And, um, and I also grew up where, you know, it was a traditional time when mom cooked meals and, you know, the. I didn't learn how to cook frankly. You know, it was, I didn't know how.
Julie Michelson: served. Yeah.
Melinda Ring: yeah, I was like, ah. And Home EC wasn't really there anymore. And so, um, uh, between. The summer before [Page//00:04:00] medical school, I went and I begged it to be a chef.
They had a job posting for a sous chef at this really fancy restaurant and I begged and begged and kept coming back and being persistent until I got the job. And then I learned, you know, how to cook, although it was for like 50 people at a time. And um, so I think I had this appreciation for the art of cooking that started at that point when you could see how to make people happy through food.
Julie Michelson: Yes. I love that. I, uh, grew up my first, first and many jobs were in the restaurant business. My stepfather had restaurants. So, um, yeah, there is something about I. Even, even if you don't really take to the cooking piece that just that love of feeding people and being creative and, uh, I love to cook, so I love culinary medicine.
Um, I, I think it's. We need to be having these conversations, you know? Um, and I grew up in the same, [Page//00:05:00] you know, the, I think the beginning of food not being food really. Um, and so we're hoping to shift it back to where people are eating real food.
Melinda Ring: Absolutely. And yeah, and, and so much happened over those eras too that have led to so many of the problems with the autoimmune disease now. Like even the changes in farming practices and, um, you know, the soil not being, being overworked and, and these monocultures of plants losing nutrients and the way animals were raised.
Like, there's just so much that's just contributed now to this, um, Explosion of autoimmune disease we're seeing
Julie Michelson: I, I couldn't agree more. I think it, it's such a huge topic, um, and there are so many layers, layers to it. I remember when I was di. Diagnosed in my early thirties, they were, you know, which was a little over 20 years ago, [Page//00:06:00] um, they were saying, you know, oh, you're so young and now, wow, if you can make it to your thirties without an autoimmune diagnosis, you're doing something right.
So it, it's just, it's insane the explosion. And same with a little off topic, but I used to teach, um, autistic children in the ni early nineties when it was rare. That's so same, same thing. So let's dig in. People ask me all the time, and I'm guessing they ask you, well, you know, what should I eat? Just tell me what to eat.
Um, so what is your approach? Um, and, and I, I think I'm really interested to learn because I, I get the feeling we, there are certain things we differ on, which is always fun and, and always a learning opportunity.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, we can arm rustle it
Julie Michelson: Yes,
Melinda Ring: Um, yeah, so. Well, so I, I, [Page//00:07:00] yeah, I think like you, so I think we'll agree on this point. I think it does need to be personalized. So I don't think, for example, every single person who has an autoimmune disease needs to avoid gluten. Um, as an example, like I, I think, uh, many people do, but maybe not everybody.
And I think that, um, You know, and I think that every autoimmune condition may have its own tweak on a typical anti-inflammatory approach. So when I think broadly about what I recommend to my patients with autoimmune disease, it's an anti-inflammatory diet. The issue is that, that that gets defined so differently by people.
Uh, and so then I think it's a matter of talking to somebody about where they are. What's feasible for them? You know, where are they starting? Where can we move them to? I do favor plant forward diets. Um, For some people that, that may include a little bit of meat. It may be more [Page//00:08:00] pescatarian. But, um, you know, I did my TED talk on this and it's like, to me it's like every plate should be half plants and, uh, at least, at least, at least half plans.
And I'm plant based, so, you know, that's, I tell people this is what I do, so I'm, I'm, um, preaching what I'm actually doing myself. Um,
Julie Michelson: and I love that you said plant forward because again, like anti-inflammatory. This plant, you know, the idea of a plant-based diet, I. To some people that could be vegan and to some pe, you know, and, and I say I have a plant-based diet, but I do eat clean animal protein. Um, but my plate is covered in vegetables, you know?
Um, I like the, i, the, you know, kind of if you think of the meat as a condiment and not, uh, you know, um, so I think anywhere in there that you fall, um, You
Melinda Ring: Yeah, I agree. [Page//00:09:00] So we're probably not as far apart as you think. I'm
Julie Michelson: no, no. Yeah,
Melinda Ring: don't, um, eat red meat, nor does my family. But, um, Uh, but my son eats poultry and that's fine. And you know, my husband eats fish and, um, then my other son and I are plant-based, but we'll eat a little bit of, you know, some eggs and dairy.
But I think you're right. You know it all when you, when people are going for that other half of the plate, um, or plant meat as a condiment kind of thing, the quality of the meat helps determine how inflammatory it is. And so if it's, uh, uh, pasture raised, how that from the meat comes from, then it's gonna be very different from a cow that was corn, you know.
Shelfed corn feed and, and, uh,
Julie Michelson: Antibiotics and all, all the things
Melinda Ring: all those
Julie Michelson: poop.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, exactly. So you know. [Page//00:10:00] Yeah. So I, no, I'm not here to them.
Julie Michelson: No, no. And then that's why I really, I was excited to have the conversation because, um, but yeah, it, and I I love that you highlighted the quality. I, I drive on the way to the clinic. I drive past a feed lot and there is no way you could ever get me to eat any part of an animal that, from there, I mean, it's just, it's so horrible.
And that's, The majority of people that are eating meat, that's what they're eating. Um, and, and so, you know, there's, it is, it's a huge difference and the studies are really impressive. Um,
Melinda Ring: and it's just also a planetary kind of thing. It's a humanitarian kind of thing, you know, like I think there's a whole energy between how we're
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Melinda Ring: creating food that we, you know, that nourishes us and.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. Absolutely. So [Page//00:11:00] broad, how do you define anti-inflammatory then? Or, or maybe not define, but when you say an anti-inflammatory diet, what are you talking about? Other than loads of veggies?
Melinda Ring: Yeah, it's a lot of that, you know, it's Omega three s, as I'm sure you've talked to your people about, um, uh, It, it's, you know, we talk, it, it again, it depends where they are. It's because we're talking culinary medicine too. It's not just what's on your plate, but it's how you prepare what you're eating. You know, what are the methods of food that you're eating?
What is the quality of the food that you're eating? And, you know, so deep frying versus, um, air frying will have a difference. Um, eating, uh, Eating nightshades in a raw form may have a different effect on the body than eating them when they've been stewed or cooked. And so I, I, I don't have any hard lines.
I [Page//00:12:00] think we, I try to individualize it with most people who I see for. In the early phases of coming to see me, um, will oftentimes do an elimination diet, sometimes food sensitivity testing to help narrow in, but oftentimes an elimination diet because as you know, you know, that's the gold standard. Um, the, the concern of course is that in an elimination diet, somebody may do an elimination, add back in the food and not notice a physical difference, but is it still causing something?
Physiologically, like increasing inflammation or increasing permeability in the guts at a, at a subclinical level. Um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of my general approach is very clamp forward. You know, the classic Mediterranean diet or whatever is cult culturally appropriate for somebody. And, um, focusing on quality organic as much as possible.
Non G m O as much as possible, um, and high [Page//00:13:00] in those anti-inflammatory foods. And an, uh, phytonutrients, antioxidants, and omega-3 S
Julie Michelson: Love it lot, lots of rainbow eating going on.
Melinda Ring: Yes. Yeah, rainbow.
Julie Michelson: Um, and, and you know, it is, it's so, please, somebody said to me the other day, you make the best salads.
Melinda Ring: Ooh, yeah.
Julie Michelson: And I'm like, they're just sa, you know? But yeah, they have lots of different things in every color and you know, it, it's just, it's fun to introduce to people things that they might not think to be including in their diet.
Um, and you mentioned,
Melinda Ring: Enjoy a salad actually.
Julie Michelson: Yes.
Melinda Ring: actually be very filling and tasty
Julie Michelson: And nutrient dents and not iceberg lettuce with ranch dressing on it
Melinda Ring: right, right.
Julie Michelson: like that.
Melinda Ring: Although I do have to say, and maybe this is from growing up in the seventies and having this for dinner almost every night there was a part of me that still really finds iceberg lettuce
Julie Michelson: oh, me [Page//00:14:00] too. That was the only lettuce we ate.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. It was the only lettuce and there's still something when I eat it, which maybe it brings back those memories of sitting around the dinner table
Julie Michelson: you. And I'm not saying you can never eat iceberg lettuce. I'm just saying that's not the kind of salad I'm talking about. And you know, a lot of people don't drink enough water and iceberg is loaded with water. So no, um, we're not, we're not hating on iceberg.
It's just that, that variety
Melinda Ring: have the Iceberg Commission coming
Julie Michelson: Yeah, the deeper colors, you know, all the things. Um, I love that. And I, I I like that you highlighted, um, I take a unique approach to reintroductions for the very reason you were just saying so often either people aren't doing them methodically enough, um, or. They're having a little bit of something and they can't feel anything and they don't notice, and, and so I, I kind of, not kind of, [Page//00:15:00] we kind, we go heavy and hard and several days in a row.
And that had originally started just from my own experience of their Earth foods. I can eat once and I have, I can't feel it
Melinda Ring: Right.
Julie Michelson: if I eat the, if I eat the leftovers or I eat them two days in a row or, you know, Um, I definitely feel it, and obviously doing what I do, I, I therefore know that means they're inflammatory the whole time.
Um, and, and so, but the other side I see is that people do an elimination diet and they feel great and they wanna stay in that elimination phase.
Melinda Ring: yes.
Julie Michelson: And, and, you know, they're just overs restricted.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, I see that as a big problem when, when people don't have the guidance like you're describing on doing the reintroduction and you know, that's what's now being commonly publicized as this orthorexia where people become scared of
Julie Michelson: And I went through [Page//00:16:00] it. I totally went through it. I wasn't guided. I was, I, you know, I, my method of healing was kind of spaghetti at the wall. Um, I dunno. And this is why I have a podcast cuz I learned a lot from listening to podcasts and I would try things. Um, and, and I definitely. Have a, a more variety in my diet now than I did even five years ago because that, you know, the rigid worked.
Um, and I didn't know, I didn't, I never really did a proper, I, I just took stuff away. It wasn't really an elimination phase of a plan. It was, um, and so it, it can be a really real thing. I'm an autoimmune paleo coach and people think. A I p first of all, is a diet. It's not, it's a healing plan. It's a framework.
Um, and that elimination phase is supposed to be a phase
Melinda Ring: Right.
Julie Michelson: that's not, you know, don't eat all of these things for the rest of your [Page//00:17:00] life. Um, and
Melinda Ring: And the other, yeah, I mean, the other thing is when the body heals,
Julie Michelson: yes,
Melinda Ring: Things that you couldn't tolerate before, you may be able to, at least in moderation or in small amounts. And you know, and, and I tell people that too, even when they are, if they're not celiac, but they feel better eating gluten, you know, I'll tell them like, yeah, uh, you can occasionally have that Chicago pizza or go have that birthday cake at
Julie Michelson: York pizza.
Melinda Ring: birthday.
Julie Michelson: Sorry.
Melinda Ring: Uh, you, you know, you can, you can do that. Just know you may not feel that great the next day and, um, you're, but at least you're empowered to make the decisions. And, and,
Julie Michelson: And, and have an understanding of what your consequences are. So it is, it is a choice, not a mistake, or a slip or a, you know, we do the same thing. It's like, what's a, you know, what are the never foods? What are the, sometimes, and maybe [Page//00:18:00] it's like I. This is a rare occasion. It's a sometimes food. Um, but it's certainly not gonna be the night before I'm giving a presentation or have a big meeting or, you know, like it, we, it's really good to know the consequences.
Um, and I have, I, I will eat tomatoes like two, three times a year cuz I love them. I grew up in New Jersey.
Melinda Ring: so healthy. I mean,
Julie Michelson: They are. They are. And and so, no. No, but I know, you know, I know for my body, kinda, and again it goes back to if I'm gonna take a little bit of a hit, I know I'm driving inflammation and I am, I try to be pretty careful about it's gotta be worth it.
Melinda Ring: So do you, do you feel like all of the NA nitrates should be avoided for all autoimmune
Julie Michelson: No,
Melinda Ring: Oh, okay.
Julie Michelson: Uhuh.
Melinda Ring: personal for you
Julie Michelson: it is, it is. I, I think there are things, um, You know, [Page//00:19:00] sugar isn't something anybody needs to intentionally include, and we're all going to, we're all gonna get some sugar here and there, but, but like you said, they're, you know, they're nutrient dense, the night shades. Um, and so same thing for a long time I avoided all of them and just thought, oh, they're a problem for me.
And I'm still, and, and it, this is years in and I'm still like, okay, I really wanna try. Cooked, you know, I'm gonna bake a tomato sauce. There was a time where I couldn't, I couldn't handle that. And I have healed so much and I do have celiac and so I know my gut was a mess and I, you know, I know there's a reason why a lot of things were a problem.
Um, but I always, the nutrient dense foods, I always want people to, to eat, include them if they can, for sure.
Melinda Ring: And that's an example where the culinary medicine part can come into play. Because if you're doing it, so, you know, for example, peeling it, the peeling [Page//00:20:00] tomatoes and peppers, taking the seeds out helps decrease those alkaloids. Cooking helps, you know, decrease, um, or break down some of the things like the, the soine and potatoes.
And so all of those can help. Um, Instead of just, you know, eating, which I love, like, uh, eating raw, those little raw grape tomatoes,
Julie Michelson: yeah.
Melinda Ring: right. Um, but, you know, making a sauce, especially if you pee on DC, that can help make it much more tolerable for people who are, have autoimmune disease.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. And that's where it is worth, you know, really being experimental. It's the same thing with, with dairy, you know, it's so easy and I, I grew up, my family was in the dairy business
Melinda Ring: Oh, wow.
Julie Michelson: and I for a long time, Thought I couldn't handle any dairy and I knew it was inflammatory for me. Um, and then, you know, as I learned more and traveled the, the, the road a little longer, [Page//00:21:00] um, you know, I learned, hey, some people can tolerate sheep and go and, you know, even if it's not cow and, um, I'm somebody who was, I could always do grassfed butter. Um, my daughter can't,
Melinda Ring: Oh,
Julie Michelson: it's, it's really interest and she's, I, I think that's, if you don't have an allergy, that's more rare. You know, most people can get away with some grass fed butter.
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: I. Um, but you know, years in, I found out, oh my gosh, I, goat cheese is totally fine for me. And these days, you know, you can get goat, cheddar and goat whatsoever.
I mean, we joke, I make a mean lasagna. That is, you know, no cow dairy, no grains, no, no tomato, no. Everyone's like, how is it, you know, how. It tastes really tastes like lasagna. It's amazing. Um, so, but I have fun with it, right? It's not, it's not, I, I think that if we shift our brain out of this [Page//00:22:00] deprivation, like, okay, I just listed all those things I can't have am my lasagna, which are what most people think of as lasagna.
Um, I can enjoy lasagna and it's delicious.
Melinda Ring: Right. There's so many alternative ways to prepare things, and I think once people remove. And get, you know, clear their system of it, they can actually start to taste and enjoy food so much better, so much more, especially once you get out things like processed foods and sugar, like you were saying. Um, the taste buds regenerate and, you know, things, things are like, oh my gosh, this is delicious and you never would've liked it before.
So,
Julie Michelson: I had a client once ask me, you know, literally, she was totally serious. Were strawberries always this sweet? Like yes they were. You just couldn't taste it.
Melinda Ring: Right. Yeah. To me.
Julie Michelson: it's, it is. It's incredible. So I know we both, [Page//00:23:00] you're right, we have a lot of shared, um, You know, just outlook and approach with, you know, you with your patients and me, with my clients.
And, and it does always, I love that you keep highlighting like you meet them where they are, right? I have, I work with clients that are men in their sixties that don't cook,
Melinda Ring: Mm-hmm.
Julie Michelson: you know, all the way to people who love cooking. They just have no idea, you know, how and what to be cooking for themselves. Um, So where do, if you, you have somebody who's coming to you and they're living on processed food, they don't cook, you know, haven't cooked, where do you even start with them?
Like what's your first uplevel that you have them do?
Melinda Ring: Well, I, I'll give them some recommendations, but I'll tell you that I really, um, for people like that and I, I think coaches, people who can coach them and, and really support [Page//00:24:00] them, uh, it's such a huge benefit to helping people with behavior change. Um, There are a lot of people, uh, who don't know how to cook or don't like to cook.
And I, you know, and, and the other thing we have to do is meet them where they are in terms of what's feasible. So, you know, if I have a mom who's working two jobs, or I have, um, somebody who doesn't have access to food or doesn't have financial means, so, you know, for example, it's easy for me to say. Um, sure go to Whole Foods and buy the precut vegetables and Trader Joe's where they have it all prepared.
Like that's a great way to start. But, um, and, and so yes, that would be for the right person. That would be great. For somebody else that may just put them be like, oh, this. Person isn't talking my language. And for them it may be, you know, recognizing that, for example, um, frozen vegetables without [Page//00:25:00] added stuff in it is a great way to start increasing it.
That doesn't require a lot of cooking. Um,
Julie Michelson: Or cutting
Melinda Ring: or cutting. Yeah, exactly. And they, and they can be very affordable and they get frozen at their peak place and, you know, can hold onto their nutrients. So I think things like that. Um, I think focusing on, if I, when I teach culinary medicine, we always start with knife skills and to be.
If you're gonna fill your plate with plants or make these delicious salad, you were talking about feeling comfortable with a knife and having a good knife, um, is actually probably one of the best things because I've had, I've had students where I'm teaching them and when they come to a class and they use a sharp knife, And they actually can slice through a vegetable easily instead of hacking at it because they're using this one that's been in their drawer banging against everything.
They're like, oh, cutting vegetables isn't so hard. Um, so I think, [Page//00:26:00] you know, teaching skills like basic knife skills, batch cooking, so it's not so overwhelming. I think that's a huge thing to cook larger portions and store the leftovers in the fridge or freezer. We'll talk about that. Um, simple recipes, trying to give them some.
Guidelines for easy to follow, limited number of ingredients, kinds of things. Um, and uh, yeah, you know, I think all of those are, are the kinds of things. And then, and then helping them just understand what they have in their kitchen already and what might make it a little bit easier for them. What tools might make it easier for them to be successful, what things they might wanna just have in the pantry so that it's easy to throw something easy together with four ingredients like.
You know, one fresh ingredient and the rest is already, you already have kind of thing so that you're, you're not just starting from scratch looking at him being like, okay, I guess I'll order in again.
Julie Michelson: I love that. Then that's, [Page//00:27:00] I, I think to start with, like you said, basic knife skills. Um, and it is true for people that haven't cooked or aren't from a cooking family, never worked in a restaurant. I. Probably aren't using a good knife and probably not a sharp knife. And it's,
Melinda Ring: And they don't know how to do it. Yeah.
Julie Michelson: And, and I would say if you wanna know, if your knife is sharp, try to slice a tomato.
Like it's not necessarily can it get through the hardest food like you want, you want something that can just, you know, cut like butter.
Melinda Ring: And the way that we've always, I've always done it with students too, is have them just take a piece of paper and if you cut through it and it just slices smoothly, you're good to go. But if you try to cut through it, it's ja it like that's a real, you know, you need to sharpen your knife. And, um, and there's so many good videos online for people who are.
New to [Page//00:28:00] cooking to get you comfortable. Um, so like really so many that walk you through free videos. Even like New York Times has a whole series of like knife skills and, um, so I'll, I'll encourage people to do that too. And now, now, you know, I don't, we don't lead these at Northwestern, these shared medical visits.
But there is this, there are a growing number of, um, medical appointments that you can bill to insurance and, uh, that are getting covered by commercial insurance and Medicare, um, where the, the group visit, for example, for celiac disease or inflammatory conditions, they come together and there's some educational components, some discussion, and then some.
Hands on cooking, or at least a cooking demo. And so that's a great movement that we're seeing in Madison in general.
Julie Michelson: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think there's [Page//00:29:00] so much value for the patients, um, because it, it, I think that's why there are, I always say, you know, my, my partner, the doc is, is the, you know what to do and the coach is the how to do it. Um, and it doesn't have to be a coach, but whoever it is helping, you know, educate and lead the classes without the how, and I'm sure you see it.
Well, you're giving the how as well,
Melinda Ring: Probably do to some degree, but you know, it depends on
Julie Michelson: people just keep coming back in the same place stuck because, you know, it's like, oh, I know you told me to eat real food. I don't even know what real food is. So, um, yeah, so I, I love that. Um, I think that that is part of what will change wellness and, and healthcare.
True
Melinda Ring: and hopefully, hopefully coaches will, you know, start becoming widely covered by insurance too,
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And we're getting there and there's codes. Now [Page//00:30:00] it's, you know, it's, it has to start somewhere, right?
Melinda Ring: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. The VA did a great job of, you know, pushing to get, um, a code that, but that level three code, and hopefully it'll become a Level one code soon.
Julie Michelson: exactly. It it well from your lips, right?
Melinda Ring: yes.
Julie Michelson: So I know you said there, there's no, um, across the board. Never ever. Foods for people. Um, you know that even for some occasional gluten might not be the end of the world. Um, are there things that you like just off the top of your head, in general, of course with the exception of if somebody has a sensitivity, um, but you know, are there foods that you think of like, okay, if you have autoimmunity, you really should be including these things in your diet?
Cuz they're just these power players.
Melinda Ring: Well, you already mentioned the rainbow. That's really the [Page//00:31:00] big thing. And then for me, the omega three s, um, in whatever form, whether it's from seeds or from sardines or salmon or whatever, whatever your. Omega source of choices, um, and. You're not healthy fats, you know, so it's not, not a low fat diet. And then, um, and then for people, I think also anti-inflammatory herbs and spices because that helps both with flavor, but also the really concentrated sources of nutrients.
So things like, you know, turmeric and ginger and cinnamon and garlic. Um, I think all of those, and in general, you know, I know I said there's. Can have things once in a while, but, you know, if I were to give my like, these are inflammatory, don't eat these unless you really, really, really have to. Um, that would be things like processed meats, like sausages and hot dogs [Page//00:32:00] and, um, Deep fried foods and of course anything with trans fats and, um, and really limiting refined carbohydrates as much as possible, like the white bread and the donuts and those things that are caused, um, issues with insulin, which is so directly correlated with increasing inflammation in the body.
So I have the things that I tell my people not to eat, but, um, yeah.
Julie Michelson: But you're just gentler than I am.
Melinda Ring: Might, I might be a little gentler. Maybe
Julie Michelson: in the beginning of the conversation. Well, I'm gonna sound a little nicer, but it, it's, you and I both, I mean, speak the same language a as far as it's about empowerment. Like it's, it's not a, I tell people, and that's why I like the reintroductions. Uh, if I'm working with a client, there's no way that three years from now they're gonna hear my voice in their head saying, you know, don't eat gluten.
It's [Page//00:33:00] inflammatory. No. They need to feel, what does gluten do for them? Somebody said to me, oh my gosh, there's no way you haven't had gluten in 15 years. Like at all. You don't cheat at all. And I'm like, well, you knew what happened to me when I like it. It's not really magical. I get that sick. It's not worth it.
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: I know. And so that to me is part of that empowerment is really getting to a place where you can figure out, I dunno, what foods are triggering you
Melinda Ring: Right, and
Julie Michelson: what foods make you feel amazing.
Melinda Ring: Yes, and it takes a little time to get there, but, um, it's easier when people have the quick, quick win and start to feel better or start to see that puffiness go down and, um, just feel more comfortable in their clothes and their joints feel better. You know, I've had people who have come in for, um, inflammatory bowel type stuff, [Page//00:34:00] and then they're, you know, they're on, we're working towards this anti-inflammatory diet.
Um, of different sorts. You know, it could be more of like a FOD map diet. It could be more, um, of a more standard classic elimination diet. But then like, oh, I didn't know, like my skin got better and, oh, I didn't realize I was aching. I thought I was just getting older. And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's amazing how these things affect you.
But when they came in, they were just like, I want my gut to feel better. And then they, you know, take note of these other things and that's where it becomes so much easier to stick with it. Um,
Julie Michelson: That's all the reinforcement we need is to start to feel better. You know? I mean it really is. It's, it's amazing. Um, and, and, Again, that's, it's so motivating. I remember when I was changing diet and I had a friend who said, oh, I'm really starting to worry about you. You don't eat food. Like, you know, you barely eat.
And I'm like, I eat so much real [Page//00:35:00] food. And, and this, this was a woman who was living, I'm not even kidding you on diet Dr. Pepper.
Melinda Ring: Oh my
Julie Michelson: And Doritos, you know, like, I'm like, I, all I eat is real food, you know? Um, but it was like, I was like, do you remember when I could barely get outta bed?
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Julie Michelson: Like, I, I don't understand now you're worried about me.
You should have been worried about me back then. Um, so it's, it just, we just have to change our, our thinking. And like you said, once we start to get those small wins, We really, the, the gains and sometimes it's slow. Sometimes it's really slow. I have a client right now who has RA and she has a, an autoimmune gut disorder.
And, and everybody's different. Some people are like, no, I'm wanna jump in and do the elimination. And she was like, that is so overwhelming. Let's work toward it. I said, let's literally just start [Page//00:36:00] paying attention to gluten. Let's just start there. Literally her, her guts. And I'm like, how has nobody ever told you to try going gluten free for uc and ra?
And, you know, um, but that's,
Melinda Ring: yeah, you bring up this great point with both of those stories to me, which is, um, navigating social situations and navigating healthcare because, um, I have had certainly patients with inflammatory bowel disease. This is insane to me, but who have been told by their, you know, noted, you know, well-known gastroenterologist diet makes no difference to your dis
Julie Michelson: They still are saying that it, it's,
Melinda Ring: with cancer who have been told that.
It just, so, so I think navigating that can be challenging and navigating social situations, um, when you're going out, you know, for dinner when you're going to somebody's house [Page//00:37:00] and, um, you know, Making sure to try to choose restaurants that have autoimmune friendly options. Communicating to friends if you're going to their house or bringing your own if you need to.
And you know, hope the right friend will understand and not take it personally. Um, so I think that is a challenge for people when they're starting on this journey.
Julie Michelson: Definitely in the beginning. Um, and, and it is a fascinating thing. Other people really are, Interested in, you know, aren't you gonna eat that? Why aren't you eating that? I, I don't know why other people care are so invested in, in, you know, what we eat. Um, we're going away this weekend to, to visit family.
And it was, you know, can Julie eat this? If I can Julie eat that, don't worry about Julie, Julie worry about herself. It's, you know, but I'm years into this and it doesn't make me uncomfortable. And I appreciate, you know, people trying to accommodate me. Um, You know, and, and luckily [Page//00:38:00] at this point, I'm not surrounded by anybody who is offended if I can't eat what they're, what they're serving.
Um, but it, it takes time. I, I think it's a huge, I don't know that I've ever worked with a client that that does, doesn't come up in the beginning until they really, you know, do feel empowered and, and understand, you know, why they're avoiding certain things.
Melinda Ring: Do you, do you find it helpful to have their significant other come in or, and then also I'm curious how you manage, cuz I, I think one of the biggest challenges is when it's somebody who has to change their diet, but they're also cooking for others like kids and other thing. What, what's your approach to those?
Julie Michelson: my approach and, and it usually takes a little time. Um, I am not a proponent of double cooking. Uh, it could be now adding, you know, something a another, you know, if it's a I, although I don't, [Page//00:39:00] the kids don't really need a lot of the starch either. But, um, you know, slowly changing some of, some of those things.
Um, I have. And often, and it's usually the woman who's cooking often, you know, she feels like she has to double cook or triple cook or, and doesn't have the energy to do any of it single time. Eventually the whole family is eating the same way and they all love it. They all learn to love real food and the kids are excited about packing healthy lunches and, you know, and, and that to me is the biggest gift in what I do.
Is not just helping somebody recoup their health, but oh my gosh, now their children aren't growing up on Twinkies, you
Melinda Ring: Yeah, what a gift,
Julie Michelson: Yeah. They don't have to relearn, they don't have to get sick and relearn, you know, decades later.
Melinda Ring: And they've, you know, there's such a genetic component to, there's environmental [Page//00:40:00] and genetic and other, you know, specs and, and so they, they're setting up their kids for success, um, and maybe even, uh, delaying or preventing the onset of an autoimmune condition.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And, and I think that that is such a, you know, it is, yes. Genetics, yes. Environment and, and what people are. Often just attributing to genetics cuz my mom had, and my aunt had, and, but you were all eating the same way. You were all using the same, you know, personal care products, you were all, so it is not, it's never just genetics.
Um, and so, and again, I, I, I say it like, oh, it's so simple, you know, don't double cook. It's a process. And again, start where you're comfortable. Um, But literally I have not had one family that hasn't [Page//00:41:00] all eventually ended up on board really willingly.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, well, it's a healthy diet, right? So
Julie Michelson: Yeah.
Melinda Ring: and
Julie Michelson: And it tastes good.
Melinda Ring: there's that transition period,
Julie Michelson: There is, there is for sure.
Um, I, I always think about when I, when I was a kid, um, I had a friend who was, she was the youngest of 10. And obviously very big family, um, her parents and it's, I don't know why it stuck with me. Like even then I knew there was something to it and, and now, uh, I, I just think it's gold. Her parents were brilliant.
Um, they would, when they like, would cook a vegetable or something that they wanted the kids to eat the first time they made it, they would make a really small portion and they would say, this is just for us. Just, just for the adults. You, you can have a taste, but it's just for us. And literally that was how they got their kids to eat everything.
Melinda Ring: [Page//00:42:00] That's really funny.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And so I, I, I,
Melinda Ring: on your kids with
Julie Michelson: Well, but I, I think the reason it stuck was I kind of realized like, oh, there is something to this thinking. I'm not gonna like it. Um, or, you know, if they want me to eat it, it must be healthy and I don't want it kind of deal. Um, and, and so, yeah, and I, I don't remember ever seeing iceberg lettuce at her house actually. Oh, so it's, it's, you know, so I, I love them and I highlight again, let's start where you are. Um, and, and I think I'm guessing you have a similar approach just because we seem very aligned in this. We tend to focus on avoid this and take that out and, you know, eliminate this and, and so, you know, if you're somebody who's starting and you're not on a real foods diet, just start adding in before you ever start taking away, you know, start [Page//00:43:00] playing with some more vegetables.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, that's always my first go-to is just the eat, eat more plants kind of thing, because once you fill up at least half a plate with colorful fruits and vegetables, non starchy ones, you, you have room for less. And so just automatically you're gonna start making cha, you know, healthy changes and start feeling better.
Julie Michelson: And you can even as an adult, eat your vegetables first. I went through that with my mom when I was helping her learn and adjust her eating. Um, she would say, well, I just, but I, I just can't eat that many vegetables. I'm full. And I'm like, well, you don't have to eat a ribeye first. You know? Um, and so we joke around here, I love vegetables.
I don't ever. Think like, oh, I have to get these in. Um, but even if you do feel that way, then start with them first.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, I, I mean, this is a little off topic, but I think what too many people are dealing [Page//00:44:00] with right now because of the diets that, that they've been eating is a lack of awareness of hunger. And, um, so it's almost the opposite problem is that they'll just keep going and that usually is in processed foods and sugar and, um, yeah.
Julie Michelson: And that's where that adding in, you know, the healthy fats keep you full.
Melinda Ring: yes.
Julie Michelson: Um, but you're right, we have to almost re, you know, learn satiety and, you know, this is what it feels like to be full. And I'm good. Um, somebody was asking me the other day, well, what do you snack on? And I'm, and I'm not antis snack.
I think if you need to, you know, when you're adjusting things and if you need a snack, like have, I, I don't por portion control. Um, I, I think of like, like ratios, like, you know, cover your plate in the veggies and, and it takes care of itself. Um, but I don't really snack often because at, at this [Page//00:45:00] point, because I eat a, I have a lot of healthy fats in my diet.
I'm not. I don't get hungry an hour after I eat. Like I just don't,
Melinda Ring: Yeah, and protein keeps you satiated too. And
Julie Michelson: and fats,
Melinda Ring: um, and you know, that's, that is, you know, one of the things where there's this whole myth of like, well, if I only eat plants then I won't get enough protein. Which of course is totally not true. Um, very easy to get plenty, even if you're a weight trainer. Um, so, you know, I
Julie Michelson: But again, if you're eating real food and that's I think another. You know, um, if you're eating processed vegan food, that's not really food. You're not probably gonna get enough protein.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. Or, or you're getting the protein, but it's with a bunch of other not so great stuff. Yeah.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. I love it. So we've covered so many things and you've already given so many tips, but [Page//00:46:00] listeners know that at the end of every episode, I always ask for
Melinda Ring: Oh no, I didn't get a wording for this. Okay. Alright.
Julie Michelson: throwing you under the bus. It could be something you've already said, but really it's, it just comes down to what's one thing listeners can do today to start to improve their health?
Melinda Ring: Well I know you've already hammered on the. Rainbow. So I'm not gonna do that. I, I'm gonna go with what we talked about, which is, um, make sure you're, you know, get comfortable with, for food, not for other things. Get comfortable with a knife. Um, you know, remember,
Julie Michelson: love the disclaimer Melinda
Melinda Ring: uh, there's too much violence in the world, uh, but. Um, yeah, I, you know, I, I, there's a, a phrase I've heard, you know, which is love the food that loves you back. And, um, and so I think that shift to that and cut up your vegetables and for have them precut in the, [Page//00:47:00] in the refrigerator. So it's easy. It's at eye level.
Easy thing to go for. Um, just for me, it's all about making. These changes easy because we get busy and we get hungry. And then other priorities, uh, and that sugar buzz or, um, you know, the, the snack, the easy snack is the easy choice. So we have to make healthy, easy.
Julie Michelson: I love it. We have to make healthy easy. I knew you couldn't give just one, by the way, but it's okay because most people can. But that is so true. I always tell people, you know, when I'm trying to get people to prep, same thing. I have so many clients that are like, oh, I buy vegetables, you know, and then I throw them
Melinda Ring: And they go back.
Julie Michelson: bad, you know? Um, but I, I say this, even me, like it's not, it's not that those of us that do this some day in and day out or really any different, we just already are, are prepping. I can either, [Page//00:48:00] Make a salad or eat a salad at lunchtime. I don't have enough time in my day to, to do both, so it's gotta be prepped ahead of time.
Um, so I I love that.
Melinda Ring: Yeah, yeah. When I'm in the middle of patients and I have half an hour, which then becomes 15 minutes,
Julie Michelson: right.
Melinda Ring: I'm not gonna go start cutting vegetables and everything to make a healthy meal, and so it's either grab a snack bar or have something ready to eat that's healthier.
Julie Michelson: Amazing, and, and we will have all the links, but for people that listen on the go like I do, where's the best place to find you?
Melinda Ring: Well for you can find all my links at, at dr melinda ring.com and then that'll link to my YouTube and my Instagram, I think for quick wins. And hits. Uh, you know, Instagram's the place to go. Um, but I'm growing my YouTube channel, so, but if you go to Dr. Melinda Ring, you'll get links to all of them.
Julie Michelson: [Page//00:49:00] Amazing. Amazing.
Melinda Ring: Yeah.
Well, thanks so much for having me,
Julie Michelson: Oh my gosh. thank you so much. This has been so much fun. I knew I was gonna learn a lot. I, I just, um, I get really obviously, geeked out and excited when we get to have conversations where people can hear in other voices a similar approach. Um, and I, I love what you're doing and I love this idea of culinary medicine.
I think that is, Medicine. Right. Hippocrates? Like it's, this is not new.
Melinda Ring: Medicine. Absolutely. Alright, well, so you thought we were gonna be further apart,
Julie Michelson: I did,
Melinda Ring: close
Julie Michelson: We are really pretty close. I just may be a little more of a stick in the month than you are. That's okay. I, I can deal with that.
Melinda Ring: Well, I'm a little more anti than you are, so you know, that's, yeah.
Julie Michelson: It's true. So, but again, it, it's all about what serves each one of us. [Page//00:50:00] Um, and so I, I just am really grateful for everything you shared today.
Melinda Ring: Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been great to be here.
Julie Michelson: For everyone listening. Remember, you can get the transcripts and show notes by visiting inspiredliving.show. I hope you had a great time and enjoyed this episode as much as I did. We'll see you next week.
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Melinda Ring
Dr. Melinda Ring is Director of Osher Center for Integrative Health, and Clinical Associate Professor, Departments of Medicine and Medical Social Sciences at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine. She has an active clinical practice, directs medical trainee education and clinical and faculty fellowships in integrative medicine, founded the Cooking Up Health culinary medicine course, and conducts research. Dr. Ring contributes to textbooks, research articles in the field of Women’s Health and Integrative Medicine, has published several books on integrative medicine including The Natural Menopause Solution, and is a frequent contributor to news outlets.She is chair of the board of the American Board of Integrative Medicine. In 2021 she received the Bravewell Distinguished Service Award from the Academic Consortium for Integrative Medicine and Health, one of the highest honors in the field of integrative health.
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