Episode 127
Dr. Catherine Darley:
Expert Insights into the Critical Role of Sleep in Autoimmunity with Dr. Catherine Darley
I am joined by Dr. Catherine Darley, a renowned expert in natural sleep medicine to the podcast. With over 20 years of experience, Dr. Darley teaches vital sleep skills through her online courses and is the founder of Skilled Sleeper.
In this episode, we delve into the intricacies of our circadian system, the challenges posed by modern culture, and the simple steps you can take to remarkably improve your sleep, reduce inflammation, protect your brain health, and overall, feel better than you could ever imagine.
First Aired on: Feb 19, 2024
Episode 127
Dr. Catherine Darley:
Expert Insights into the Critical Role of Sleep in Autoimmunity with Dr. Catherine Darley
I am joined by Dr. Catherine Darley, a renowned expert in natural sleep medicine to the podcast. With over 20 years of experience, Dr. Darley teaches vital sleep skills through her online courses and is the founder of Skilled Sleeper.
In this episode, we delve into the intricacies of our circadian system, the challenges posed by modern culture, and the simple steps you can take to remarkably improve your sleep, reduce inflammation, protect your brain health, and overall, feel better than you could ever imagine.
First Aired on: Feb 19, 2024
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
The Importance of Sleep:
- Dr. Darley’s passion stemmed from observing teenagers' improved performance when following their natural body clock.
- She highlights the intensive work in sleep studies and personal practice, emphasizing the collective impact of improved sleep habits.
Circadian System:
- Our circadian system governs the 24-hour cycle of bodily functions.
- Modern life with artificial lighting has misaligned our natural sleep cycles.
- Daylight suppresses melatonin and signals wakefulness, while its absence at night is crucial for health and sleep.
- Having regular meal times helps synchronize your body’s circadian systems.
Reducing Blue Light Exposure:
- Modern environments lack natural light during the day and have excess light at night.
- Dr. Darley recommends at least 250 lux of light during the day and minimal exposure to blue light (10 lux or less) before bed.
- Strategies for reducing blue light exposure include wearing blue-light-blocking glasses, utilizing dim or red lights, and embracing natural light during the day.
Key Strategies for a Sleep Healthy Lifestyle:
- Incorporate 20 minutes of bright outside light during the first couple of hours of the day.
- Take sun breaks every two hours.
- Aim to have consistent meal times to strengthen your body’s circadian rhythms.
- Find the optimum time for exercise based on whether you wish to sleep earlier or later.
- Manage artificial blue light exposure by wearing protective glasses 2–3 hours before bedtime and setting dim lighting in your home.
Tips for Enhancing Sleep Quality:
- Variability is just as important as the number of hours of sleep.
- Bedtimes and wake times should not fluctuate more than 30 minutes, and total sleep time shouldn’t vary by more than 60 minutes across the week.
- Use technology to your advantage; set winds-down alarms to remind you to prepare for sleep.
- Naps should be either 30 minutes or a full sleep cycle (90 minutes) and taken earlier in the afternoon instead of the evening
Other Resources:
Connect with Dr. Catherine Darley
Episode Transcript
Julie Michelson:[Page//00:00:00] Welcome back to the Inspired Living with Autoimmunity podcast. I'm your host, Julie Michelson, and today we're joined by Dr. Catherine Darley, the expert in natural sleep medicine. Having treated patients for over 20 years, she teaches the sleep skills people need to thrive through her online courses. You can find her most everywhere at Skilled Sleeper.
Julie Michelson: In today's conversation, we're talking about our circadian system and how we've gotten off track in modern culture when it comes to sleep and health. Listen and learn how taking some simple steps can improve your sleep to reduce inflammation, protect your brain health, and feel better than you imagine.
Julie Michelson: Catherine, welcome to the podcast.
Catherine Darley: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Julie Michelson: This is such an important topic and I love the work that you're doing of just really in a, I think easily digestible way, educating people about the importance [Page//00:01:00] of sleep and also, you know, the steps that we can take. Um, and, and so I would love to really start with basics. Um, but first I want to know, like, how did you become Skilled sleeper.
Julie Michelson: Like how, why is this your passion?
Catherine Darley: Yeah, so I actually got interested in college. There was a local school district that was doing major renovations of one of their high schools and they just didn't have enough space. So what they did is they had some one group of high school students go at the regular 7 30 to 2 30 and then they had another group of students use that same high school facility from 3 to 9 p.
Catherine Darley: m. And that is actually better for teenagers body clock and it's just, um, that really sparked my interest and kept my interest going. So since then, I've worked as a research assistant in a sleep lab. I've done the overnight sleep [Page//00:02:00] studies while I was in medical school. And for the last 20 years, I've had my own practice treating people of all ages.
Catherine Darley: And my goal, it may sound big. Uh, unbelievably big is to uplift the sleep of America doing patient care one by one by one is very gratifying, but it doesn't impact a whole bunch of people. So now I'm getting out more into the world talking about the importance of sleep because everybody sleeps.
Julie Michelson: I'd love that. And that's why we're having this conversation, right? I'm a, I'm an introvert and never, you know, I didn't have dreams of being a podcast host. Um, but it's same thing realizing that, you know, I love my one on one clients, um, but we need to change the conversation. And, and I feel like some of the things that are so obvious when we live the way we live, people have no idea about.
Julie Michelson: Um, and [Page//00:03:00] so, yeah, so let's dive in. I know my listeners know sleep is one of my, my passion pillars. Um, and, and, but I, I really still think we can't have enough conversations. Um, so let's start with the why, right? Let's like, what is. Let's talk about the circadian system and like, why are we so far off how nature intended at this point in time and in society?
Julie Michelson: I
Catherine Darley: Yeah. Thank you for asking that, you know, with the advent of electricity decades ago now, people just easily moved inside and it is a lot easier to be inside when you have got a light switch to flick rather than candlelight, firelight, all that. And when we step inside, we remove ourselves from that natural, like dark.
Catherine Darley: Light dark cycle outdoors at this time, even though where I am, it's over overcast. It's [Page//00:04:00] rainy. It's probably close to 10, 000 lakhs of light. Whereas here, even with a computer screen, the lights on another computer. It is about 160 lux of light, which is not sufficient for human health. Uh, a lux, to give a reference, one lux is equal to one candle flame, and we need to have at least 250 lux of light during the day when the sun is up.
Catherine Darley: And in office buildings and homes, we don't get 250 lux of light.
Julie Michelson: love, I love this. I think this is really the secret reason. You know, my bigger reason is to share the conversations, but I always learn so much. Um, and again, even though I just said to you before we hit record. But you know, I, you, we were talking to blue blockers and, and, um, which I'm sure we'll get to, but I literally used to wear glasses over my glasses.
Julie Michelson: So I, as much as, [Page//00:05:00] uh, of a geek as I am, um, these are new numbers for me. So I'm excited to have some more info in my arsenal. So for that.
Catherine Darley: Yes.
Julie Michelson: Because I think the, I love that you took it all the way back, which is really when our lifestyle started to shift to electricity. You know, we hear so much right now about blue light.
Julie Michelson: I feel like it's almost the same as with diet, right? People are with autoimmunity, especially are like, tell me what not to eat, right? What should I be avoiding? And it's like, well, wait a minute. What about. You know, what you need to be eating also. And so I think there's so much attention on avoid blue light, avoid blue light.
Julie Michelson: But what I'm hearing you say, like right out the gate is we're actually not getting enough light in our eyes during the day.
Catherine Darley: Yes, we're not getting enough light in our eyes during the day. And what happens, Julie, when we get sunlight in the morning? Is it [Page//00:06:00] signals to our whole body? It is time to be awake. It is time to be active, alert, productive, uh, energetic. And without that signal, we can feel fatigued. Um, one of the things that happens in the sleep system is that our melatonin is still slightly elevated when we wake up.
Catherine Darley: And we need that strong light signal from the sun to suppress whatever melatonin is. And it's still on board. Uh, so that is really an important piece. I think that's missing of the conversation is the recommendation is at least 20 minutes of bright outside light. Um, in the first hour or two of the day, and I said, um, because you know, a common question crossed my mind and people say, Well, I sit next to the window or I drive.
Catherine Darley: You know, in the, in the first hour of my day. Is that enough light? And they're thinking I'm going to say yes. And actually, it's not. There's coatings on windows. The, [Page//00:07:00] um, you know, the ceiling is going to overhang enough that you're just not getting enough light.
Julie Michelson: I love that you brought that up. I get that. I live in Colorado, although I work with people all over, but I get that question all the time in the winter. It's easy, you know, and, and I love that you're starting, you know, if we're talking. Cycles and rhythms, right? Yes. What you do first thing in the morning actually really does impact your sleep.
Julie Michelson: And people are always like, wait, I said, I'm having sleep issues. So why are you talking to me about morning? Um, so when do you have other than like, you know, suck it up buttercup. Do you have any recommendations for those winter months? If people are somewhere cold to, you know, how do you make yourself get out there?
Catherine Darley: Yeah, I, I like, um, you know, there's no easy answer. You're, you're going to have to be in the cold weather to go outside and get enough light. Uh,
Julie Michelson: great because cold therapy is awesome. So I'm [Page//00:08:00] always, I'm
Catherine Darley: Yeah, there's benefit,
Julie Michelson: you know,
Catherine Darley: in some. Yes, and well and sometimes people ask about light boxes and there are certainly a place for not light boxes But myself as an astropathic physician I'm also keeping in mind all the other health benefits of being exposed to nature and going outside Yes, you can maybe replace with a light box, but you're not going to be getting The wonderful volatile chemicals from the trees.
Catherine Darley: That scent of pine actually stimulates our immune system. You're not going to get that if you're replacing the sunlight outdoors with a light box indoors. So it's really, um, kind of acknowledging that we human beings are meant to be. We have been most of human history embedded in nature. And when you step away from nature, you just cannot replicate.
Catherine Darley: The entire benefits of [Page//00:09:00] nature inside. It's just not possible.
Julie Michelson: I love that. That's, it's true. It's so true. And I love the grace. You're not like, Oh, you have to get up and run outside, you know, within the first 10 minutes of lifting your head off the pillow. So You know, even if it's moms who have to get kids off to school, whatever it is, like we can all create. No, nobody has the time.
Julie Michelson: We have to create the time and really prioritize. Um, so let's talk a little more about, you know, for people that are like, well, I've heard of circadian rhythm, you know, what I know you know it. It sounds obvious to us. But you know, why are we even? Why do we care that we used to live, you know, without electricity and artificial light?
Catherine Darley: Yeah. So our circadian circa means, uh, around and dn means day. So that's around a day. And we, in our body, every organ system has this [Page//00:10:00] 24 hour pattern where it does more or less of its function at different times of day. Many of our systems are set to kind of. Slow down during nighttime during sleep a really common example that people, most people can identify with is our digestive tract.
Catherine Darley: Our digestive tract is set to be active and easily digest food during the day, but not at night. So if you have ever stayed up late for a special event or worked overnight, studied overnight, got up super early for a travel day, And tried to eat at a time that you're usually asleep. Often, the food just sits there.
Catherine Darley: It just does not digest. People get an upset stomach because their circadian rhythm of digestion is set to be off and less active at night. Uh, and, you know, we could go through every organ system has times of day that it does [Page//00:11:00] more or less of its work.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And especially anybody with autoimmunity or any kind of chronic illness or inflammation. I'm often focusing on the systems that are actually really working while we're sleeping and getting restorative sleep, like detox, like, you know, glymphatic cleaning, brain cleaning, you know, there's, there are some healing, there's a lot of repair happening at night.
Julie Michelson: You know, beautiful, good, like even people sleeping, maybe we'll get to that too, but like, does it matter what time you sleep and can, can we influence and we do in a way that's not healthy? Is there a way to influence, you know, our patterns? I know so many people who think that they're super sleepers, um, until we.
Julie Michelson: Show them they're not. Um, and I know, you know, genetically, there's this tiny little percentage of the population that's a super sleeper, but if you really think four hours of sleep at night is enough for [Page//00:12:00] you, you're probably wrong.
Catherine Darley: Right. The thing that
Julie Michelson: like, what's that range? Does it matter if you sleep, you know, if you go to bed really late?
Julie Michelson: Again, we're talking circadian, so sun cycles, day cycles.
Catherine Darley: yes. So we do think about people being strongly morning types, evening types or neither. Most people are going to be kind of middle of the road and not strongly. And I think about this. Uh, you know, people fall on this bell curve of what their circadian chronotype is or biorhythm is another phrase. And I think it's best to honor that.
Catherine Darley: Think about it like your height, you know, you might be tired and kind of slouch. That's what I do. If I'm tired. You might be. Proud and happy and standing tall, but your height doesn't vary much and similarly Whether you're a morning person or a night person or neither doesn't vary much So what I like people to connect [Page//00:13:00] with is if the whole world was on your schedule What hours would you keep?
Catherine Darley: You know, if the banking hours, the work hours, the family hours, all of those things that we adjust ourselves to, if they were on your rhythm, what hours would you naturally sleep? Cause people have a time that they, uh, will feel sleepy and a time that they feel ready to To wake up. And that is actually set deep in the brain.
Catherine Darley: And that is why I think it's best, first of all, to align your lifestyle with that, if possible. And then if it's not possible, you can use precisely times light and darkness and melatonin at the right timing has a little bit of an effect. Also, you could shift your body clock a little bit, but as soon as you remove those interventions, you're going to bounce right back to.
Catherine Darley: What your natural set point is.
Julie Michelson: Amazing. And so maybe silly question, I think of, [Page//00:14:00] you know, winter, um, again, back to cycles, right? So we've, we don't have a lot of daylight in the winter. I do believe thousands of years ago, we were sleeping more in the winter. I mean, is that, you know what I mean, throughout the year, are we to be adjusting or does it not matter?
Julie Michelson: Yes.
Catherine Darley: Oh, absolutely. People. Human beings sleep more in the winter when they're in natural light, dark conditions. And there's, uh, you said you're in Colorado. There's actually some great research coming out of sleep labs in Colorado where they're taking people camping They did it for a week, but then they did it just just for a weekend.
Catherine Darley: And a weekend of camping in the winter, uh, people will have elevated melatonin for about two hours more a night and sleep, um, a little less than two hours more, but they will sleep significantly longer, uh, just in a weekend [Page//00:15:00] of not having that, uh, electric light input.
Julie Michelson: I believe it. And again, how do you, like, for me, I, I sleep just amazing when I go camping and I'm a princess, but when I go camping, I, I sleep the best, but some of that also it's the light, but it's also the nature, the Smells the sounds, you know, all, all the things, um, but I think that we've just gotten so far away from giving ourself, like you said, listening to our bodies and giving ourself that permission of, you know, like, oh, it's, it's been dark now.
Julie Michelson: I mean, it is a little rough. I was in the UK last or two months ago. Um, and. I mean, it doesn't get light until like 9 30 in the morning, and it's dark at three, you know, those are really short days. It is definitely hard to be productive if you're really listening to your body in that environment. But, you know, somehow we need to figure that out, like that combining [Page//00:16:00] the modern society with natural cycles.
Catherine Darley: Right. And I think actually getting outside in the morning will help with that because you get this natural, uh, energy boost when you get that daylight, uh, in the morning that can kind of fuel your day. The other concern that I have. about, um, you know, not having enough darkness at night. Cause that's the other flip side of the coin.
Catherine Darley: We're not getting enough light during the day, but we're not getting enough darkness at night. Um, is that without adequate darkness, our melatonin doesn't, uh, elevate and it's not released for as many hours of the night. And melatonin is known as the hormone of darkness. It does help us. It also, once the melatonin is released from the brain, it enters our circulation and it sends to every cell in [Page//00:17:00] the body, which has melatonin receptors.
Catherine Darley: It's nighttime. Time to switch into this nighttime physiology. The third piece that melatonin does for us, it is a very strong antioxidant, a very strong anti inflammatory. It also has neuroprotective properties. It helps with bone reformation, keeping strong bones, many other actions. And if we are Constantly getting some light in the night and suppressing our melatonin, what's the consequence going to be over years or decades of having, you know, potentially two hours less of melatonin activity night after night after night.
Catherine Darley: That is a question I have. I'm hoping researchers are looking at it. I haven't seen any research that looks directly at that, you know, Light pollution is so prevalent. It's over 80 percent of human beings on earth are under light pollution at night. So it's [Page//00:18:00] it's going to even be hard to find populations that don't have this chronic melatonin suppression.
Julie Michelson: Because we're never gloom and doom, and we'll get to, there are steps we can all take
Catherine Darley: Oh, totally.
Julie Michelson: our sleep. And so we talked about, you know, first thing, kind of non negotiable, so impactful. I think if you didn't change anything else, you would still feel the difference if you get outside and get that sunlight in the morning.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. Um. You know, if somebody is just starting on this journey of like, okay, fine, you know, I did the food. I did the time, you know, I'm ready. I'm going to, I'm going to work on sleep. And they, they've been doing that, or they've started that, um, you know, what is your position on supplementing with melatonin, uh, for the people that know, you know, we're not even just talking right now about schedules and light, but people that actually know they struggle with sleep.
Julie Michelson: Um, yeah. Just curious because [Page//00:19:00] I, I have heard, you know, everybody has an opinion. Yours is educated. So I want to know what it is.
Catherine Darley: sure. Um, my view on using melatonin supplements is that there is, it is appropriate at times that some of the considerations for people to make and check with their health care provider around is the dose. What is the right dose for the purpose I'm taking it for? Because there are many sleep circadian and other conditions that people might take melatonin.
Catherine Darley: Is the what's the right dose from one to three milligrams is what we typically think of or even 0. 3 to three milligrams is what we think of in that sleep and circadian rhythm disorders. There's no evidence that above three works better for sleep or circadian conditions. So that's something to keep in mind.
Catherine Darley: The other thing you want to think about is the format. Is it immediate release or [Page//00:20:00] is it time release people who are falling asleep easily at the beginning of the night but are having those middle of the night wake ups, it might be more appropriate to take a time release type of format. formula. Uh, you also want to think about the timing.
Catherine Darley: If you have a circadian rhythm disorder, then the timing is not necessarily going to be right at bedtime like it would be for insomnia. And then the last thing I like to think about is either phytomelatonin or synthetic. Um, I'm a fan of the phytomelatonin because the plants have lots of other benefits and.
Catherine Darley: The synthetic could potentially have contaminants from the manufacturing process, uh, still in the compound. So that's, you know, those are some of the things to think about and make sure that you're getting the right. Uh, dose, timing, format, formula, source, all of that.
Julie Michelson: Simple. No, I'm kidding.
Catherine Darley: Well,
Julie Michelson: So, [Page//00:21:00] so, and what about this idea, um, that if you're supplementing with melatonin, you're gonna suppress your, your body's production of melatonin. Is that true or is that a fallacy?
Catherine Darley: that is a fallacy. There does not seem to be any feedback loop where your melatonin gets to a certain level and it feeds back and shuts down your melatonin, your production of melatonin. The part that is still, uh, an open question that's being investigated is whether Long term supplementation changes the receptors for melatonin.
Catherine Darley: It doesn't seem to be true, but I know it is something that's still being investigated and not quite conclusive yet.
Julie Michelson: Okay. And I do think, as it seems like, as more information and studies come out around melatonin, some of these things like the immuno protective, you know, it just seems like we're learning a lot more and more good stuff. Right. I think a recent [Page//00:22:00] virus had a lot to do with this, like seeing melatonin in a new light.
Julie Michelson: Um, and so let's circle back and that was unintentional pun there to the circadian cycle. So in the mornings. We, we want the sunlight and we want to trigger like, okay, let's suppress melatonin, let's release cortisol, time to wake up, be productive, go do your thing, catch something, right? You want to eat tonight?
Julie Michelson: Go catch something. Um, so, you know, where, and I know that there's, but there are some things that are universal. So what are your other big kind of like, you know, wait, I We mentioned it's, you know, yes, it's do this, don't do that, but also do this, don't do that.
Catherine Darley: Yeah. Yeah. So I think about it as a sleep healthy lifestyle. You get up, you have some light in the first couple hours, and then every two hours or so you go out and get a Sun break and even if it's overcast, it's still gonna [Page//00:23:00] be worth it. Plus, you know, that wraps in the benefits of moving and not sitting all the time, getting nature, taking a mental break from your tasks, lots of benefits from that.
Catherine Darley: And then,
Julie Michelson: off when you go out there. Stand barefoot.
Catherine Darley: yes. I don't know if I wanna do that today in the snow,
Julie Michelson: Although I, I have a client, he lives in the mountains. So there's been snow, you know, since it started, he'll have snow for the rest of the winter. And he's so hooked on grounding now that he's going out in the snow. And I'm like, okay, well, just be careful, you know, um. But, or again, any kind of stacking, but if we're getting true sunlight, we're, we're in nature.
Julie Michelson: So, um, although if you're in a city still go outside, like that's, that's
Catherine Darley: Totally. Yeah, totally. Um, and then one of the factors that we didn't talk about that strengthens your circadian system, the light is more about the circadian system for your in your brain, but then we [Page//00:24:00] have circadian system in every tissue. That is more, um, synchronized by having meals at regular times.
Catherine Darley: That's something that many people don't realize has an impact on their circadian system and therefore on their sleep. You want to have meals start in the same 30 minute window all days of the week. So if you're starting breakfast between 7 and 7. 30 on a workday, you wanted to have it around that same time on weekdays.
Catherine Darley: Um, so that's part of having a sleep healthy lifestyle. One thing that people often ask me is exercise. What time is the best time for exercise? And actually, for sleep, Um, exercise timing can shift your circadian rhythm. So if you want to have an easy time falling asleep fairly early and getting up earlier, then you want to exercise before four o'clock in the afternoon.[Page//00:25:00]
Catherine Darley: If you want to shift your body clock later so that you stay up later and you wake up later, 7 p. m. or after is the best time to exercise.
Julie Michelson: I love that. And a lot of things impact our, I know I can't, if I do sauna in the evening. My, I just, my body temperature stays a little bit elevated for me to get optimal deep sleep. Um, so, and I'm not saying everybody has to track, although eventually it's nice to play with at some point. But we, you know, we need to consider, you know, what our routine is and, and, and I love that you, you touched on.
Julie Michelson: I want to, I want to circle back and highlight, so we're not supposed to, you know, catch up on sleep on the weekends and, and get up early during the week and then sleep in on the weekends.
Catherine Darley: Yeah, unfortunately, no, what happens is that people, after just three nights of being partially sleep deprived, you lose insight into how negatively impacted your performance is. You start to think, Oh, well, I guess [Page//00:26:00] I got used to only six hours of sleep. If you met, if we measure your performance, it's still very impaired, but just our sensation Um, impairment is lost.
Catherine Darley: So that's one concern. And the other thing that, um, we kind of have known, but some new research that's really well done and a very large number of participants just in the last couple months has shown that we, variability is part of what we need to be looking at, not just the number of hours of sleep, but the variability.
Catherine Darley: So the recommendation is that your bedtime and your wake time don't vary by more than 30 minutes. It's across the week or across the month, and that your total sleep time, whether it's seven hours, eight hours, nine hours, uh, doesn't vary more than 60 minutes across the week. So those are some targets that people can aim for.
Julie Michelson: I like that. That's, that's great information, actually. I think, I mean, I think all of it's great [Page//00:27:00] information, um, but, and I love as we're learning more and more and more, what about napping?
Catherine Darley: Yeah. So, um, I think that napping is fine for some people. They struggle to get enough hours of sleep at night. I'm thinking about high school students, college students, you know, people who have naturally a much more night owl schedule, but yet they have to get up early for school, going to school and then coming home and taking a nap from two 30 to four every day.
Catherine Darley: And then having more energy for the evening, I think can be positive. So naps should be either 30 minutes or a full hour and a half sleep cycle. You don't want to wake up out of deep sleep because you won't feel good and it'll take about 20 minutes to get with the program. And you want to take your naps earlier in the afternoon, not in the evening or after dinner or
Julie Michelson: Not right before bedtime.
Catherine Darley:[Page//00:28:00] Yeah, right.
Julie Michelson: makes sense. That's perfect. So we're intentionally getting sunlight in the morning. We're taking our sun breaks every two hours. Um, and I think that that's just a prescription. Everybody can claim,
Catherine Darley: Yes,
Julie Michelson: um, then what, what are, what are we doing? Because you hear all this talk about blue light, blue light, where are you and I are on screens right now?
Julie Michelson: Um, people that, yeah. Some people don't even have a choice. I, I know when I built this house, they thought I was insane because I said, I only incandescent lights in my house. And they were like, we don't do that anymore. I'm like, I'll worry about where I'm going to get my light bulbs. That's what I want you to put in the house.
Julie Michelson: Because, you know, I didn't want a lot of blue light being thrown, but we can't always control all of that. So how, what do you prescribe?
Catherine Darley: Yeah. So I have got a couple ideas on that. One is the reason, sometimes I find like it's more motivating if you know the why, [Page//00:29:00] more sunlight has much more blue in the morning. And so that's why we respond with wakefulness to blue light. If you look at sunlight in the evening, it's much more that reddish pinkish.
Catherine Darley: Hue of sunset and it doesn't have much blue and that's why it helps us be ready for sleep. So some strategies and some information. You're supposed to be in 10 lux or less for three hours before bed. One tip is people can put on their phone a Um, if you, you know, three hours, I think is pretty hard because people are often still in their productive task oriented part of their day.
Catherine Darley: If that is you, you can put on blue blocking glasses. These are mine,
Julie Michelson: These are mine.
Catherine Darley: Yeah, they [Page//00:30:00] they live overnight on my bedside table and during the day they usually live on my coffee table because that's where I spend my evenings. Um, you when you're getting blue blocking glasses, you really want them to have this reddish color of lens.
Catherine Darley: Uh, yours are more.
Julie Michelson: These are my daytime just for the assault from the screens. What about I have, because again, we talked about, you know, I don't want to wear two pair of glasses anymore. Um, I have red lights in my, in my bedroom, just regular and in certain lamps. It's the bulbs are red because when the sun goes down, that's the light I want feelings on that.
Julie Michelson: What do you think?
Catherine Darley: I think that's a great strategy. And what, um, what I've done in my home, because I don't want to have red per se, is that I,
Julie Michelson: a bit like a brothel from the outside. I have had, I live in the country, but I have clients that live in neighborhoods and people are wondering what's happening in [Page//00:31:00] their houses at night.
Catherine Darley: right, right. So I have, um, some strings of twinkle lights that I've placed really carefully and artfully around my living room and then also in the bedroom so that we can turn those on and guess just gets a really nice, almost candlelight colored glow. They are, um, they look like incandescent lights.
Catherine Darley: They're not like a bright fluorescent LED
Julie Michelson: thank you for clarifying. I was going to say, but because so many now, you know, everything has moved in that direction. Um, so good to know you can still find that really soothing, soft twinkle light.
Catherine Darley: yeah, it is. It looks very, um, you know, it looks it looks lovely. And then I also in each room I have a lamp that is meant to be for wind down time and it's either for It's either aimed up or it's on a table and it's low enough and has a shade so that the light is [Page//00:32:00] never directly on your eyes. And in those, I have put older style incandescent and dim bulbs.
Catherine Darley: And so, um, yeah, I think it's a great, you know, 10 minute fun project, particularly if you've got kids or if you've got folks who love the science and the measuring is to put the lux meter on your Adjust the lighting to where it's 10 lux or less, and that you can have that for your wind down time. I also like to use tech to put a wind down alarm on the phone two hours before
Julie Michelson: Sound like a health coach.
Catherine Darley: Yeah, exactly.
Julie Michelson: Yep, that's it. So and does it matter? We and I do the same as you. I'm always going backwards from bedtime because again, I don't think it's realistic for most of us to be in the dark when the sun goes down with the way modern life is. I couldn't run two businesses if I literally like I would just have to pack it up in the winter.
Julie Michelson:[Page//00:33:00] Um, so it really doesn't matter. It's whatever your rhythm and cycle is, Which will probably adjust as you're making some of these changes anyway. Um, but really just that working backwards from bed.
Catherine Darley: Yes, absolutely. And there is research both in people who have insomnia and who have a delayed sleep wake phase, which is kind of an extreme form of being a night owl, that wearing the blue blocking glasses either for two hours before bed or starting at 9 p. m. shifts sleep onset, uh, hours earlier and also improves total sleep time.
Catherine Darley: So I think, you know, at this point, pretty much everybody needs to have a pair of blue blockers that they can wear, um, in the evenings.
Julie Michelson: And side note, if you're like me and you have blue blockers in your prescription glasses and you're going outside for your sun break, take your glasses [Page//00:34:00] off and don't be wearing sunglasses out. Like, this is sunlight in your eyes. You know, um, don't, you don't have to stare at the sun, but getting that light.
Julie Michelson: in your eyes is, is essential. And I love, you're very gentle. I have, I really literally have friends that only use candlelight at night and as committed as I am to wellness, that's just not realistic for me and for most people. Like I, it's one of those things, like if I'm not doing it, it's tough to do.
Julie Michelson: And, and so I love that these suggestions are all doable.
Catherine Darley: Yeah. Yeah. And I like to, you know, as a clinician, as a physician, I like to have the attitude that better is better, you know, if you end up half an hour before bedtime, dimming the lights and, and, and, um, putting aside your devices. And instead of having everything bright as day until you turn out the lights for sleep, that is better.
Catherine Darley:[Page//00:35:00] And I applaud you, you know, making these kinds of, I mean, I don't think there's anything harder actually than changing your habits. Changing your habits is like,
Julie Michelson: That's where better is better and one step, but don't listen to this episode and run out. Yeah, you can do the lights and all the, you know, but don't try to do all of it right away. You know, start with one step. I would say start with the morning. I don't know.
Catherine Darley: I think that, yeah, the morning light. Is definitely something that doesn't get enough attention and could be new information for people.
Julie Michelson: yeah, I love that. Amazing. So what is one step? We, we talked about a bunch of them and I just kind of did circle back to one so you can pick out. Whatever you want, you can reiterate. It could be something you haven't mentioned yet, but what's one thing that listeners can start doing today to improve their health?
Catherine Darley: Well, since we're recording after breakfast, I'm going to say the one thing that you could do today is [Page//00:36:00] set the alarm on your phone for an hour or more before bed and at that time, dim the lights to 10 lux or put on blue blockers. That, I think, you will notice the difference within a few days,
Julie Michelson: I love that. Awesome. That's such great advice. And again, very coach approach is people think, Oh, I heard this. I'm going to remember that's easy. No, you're not set an alarm. Um, because the point isn't to push bedtime later because you forgot to get off your screens. Um, and, and again, that gentle. You know, ideal would be no screens, no, you know, like let's all we, but we're not going for perfect.
Julie Michelson: We're going for better. And so I, I love your approach
Catherine Darley: great. Thank you, Julie.
Julie Michelson: before we wrap up for people listening in their car, on their jog, on their walk, on the go, where's the best place to find you
Catherine Darley: so I'm on social media at Skilled Sleeper, [Page//00:37:00] Instagram, YouTube, Substack. And then I have online courses for, that are customized for different unique demographics and the needs for ones for women, ones for shift workers, ones for families. And you could find those at skilledsleeper. com.
Julie Michelson: love it, Catherine. Thank you so much. You've shared amazing gold with us today.
Catherine Darley: Thank you. So glad to be here. Sleep well, everyone.
Julie Michelson: For everyone listening, remember you can get the transcripts and show notes by visiting inspiredliving. show. Hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week. [Page//00:38:00]
Julie Michelson: In today's conversation, we're talking about our circadian system and how we've gotten off track in modern culture when it comes to sleep and health. Listen and learn how taking some simple steps can improve your sleep to reduce inflammation, protect your brain health, and feel better than you imagine.
Julie Michelson: Catherine, welcome to the podcast.
Catherine Darley: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Julie Michelson: This is such an important topic and I love the work that you're doing of just really in a, I think easily digestible way, educating people about the importance [Page//00:01:00] of sleep and also, you know, the steps that we can take. Um, and, and so I would love to really start with basics. Um, but first I want to know, like, how did you become Skilled sleeper.
Julie Michelson: Like how, why is this your passion?
Catherine Darley: Yeah, so I actually got interested in college. There was a local school district that was doing major renovations of one of their high schools and they just didn't have enough space. So what they did is they had some one group of high school students go at the regular 7 30 to 2 30 and then they had another group of students use that same high school facility from 3 to 9 p.
Catherine Darley: m. And that is actually better for teenagers body clock and it's just, um, that really sparked my interest and kept my interest going. So since then, I've worked as a research assistant in a sleep lab. I've done the overnight sleep [Page//00:02:00] studies while I was in medical school. And for the last 20 years, I've had my own practice treating people of all ages.
Catherine Darley: And my goal, it may sound big. Uh, unbelievably big is to uplift the sleep of America doing patient care one by one by one is very gratifying, but it doesn't impact a whole bunch of people. So now I'm getting out more into the world talking about the importance of sleep because everybody sleeps.
Julie Michelson: I'd love that. And that's why we're having this conversation, right? I'm a, I'm an introvert and never, you know, I didn't have dreams of being a podcast host. Um, but it's same thing realizing that, you know, I love my one on one clients, um, but we need to change the conversation. And, and I feel like some of the things that are so obvious when we live the way we live, people have no idea about.
Julie Michelson: Um, and [Page//00:03:00] so, yeah, so let's dive in. I know my listeners know sleep is one of my, my passion pillars. Um, and, and, but I, I really still think we can't have enough conversations. Um, so let's start with the why, right? Let's like, what is. Let's talk about the circadian system and like, why are we so far off how nature intended at this point in time and in society?
Julie Michelson: I
Catherine Darley: Yeah. Thank you for asking that, you know, with the advent of electricity decades ago now, people just easily moved inside and it is a lot easier to be inside when you have got a light switch to flick rather than candlelight, firelight, all that. And when we step inside, we remove ourselves from that natural, like dark.
Catherine Darley: Light dark cycle outdoors at this time, even though where I am, it's over overcast. It's [Page//00:04:00] rainy. It's probably close to 10, 000 lakhs of light. Whereas here, even with a computer screen, the lights on another computer. It is about 160 lux of light, which is not sufficient for human health. Uh, a lux, to give a reference, one lux is equal to one candle flame, and we need to have at least 250 lux of light during the day when the sun is up.
Catherine Darley: And in office buildings and homes, we don't get 250 lux of light.
Julie Michelson: love, I love this. I think this is really the secret reason. You know, my bigger reason is to share the conversations, but I always learn so much. Um, and again, even though I just said to you before we hit record. But you know, I, you, we were talking to blue blockers and, and, um, which I'm sure we'll get to, but I literally used to wear glasses over my glasses.
Julie Michelson: So I, as much as, [Page//00:05:00] uh, of a geek as I am, um, these are new numbers for me. So I'm excited to have some more info in my arsenal. So for that.
Catherine Darley: Yes.
Julie Michelson: Because I think the, I love that you took it all the way back, which is really when our lifestyle started to shift to electricity. You know, we hear so much right now about blue light.
Julie Michelson: I feel like it's almost the same as with diet, right? People are with autoimmunity, especially are like, tell me what not to eat, right? What should I be avoiding? And it's like, well, wait a minute. What about. You know, what you need to be eating also. And so I think there's so much attention on avoid blue light, avoid blue light.
Julie Michelson: But what I'm hearing you say, like right out the gate is we're actually not getting enough light in our eyes during the day.
Catherine Darley: Yes, we're not getting enough light in our eyes during the day. And what happens, Julie, when we get sunlight in the morning? Is it [Page//00:06:00] signals to our whole body? It is time to be awake. It is time to be active, alert, productive, uh, energetic. And without that signal, we can feel fatigued. Um, one of the things that happens in the sleep system is that our melatonin is still slightly elevated when we wake up.
Catherine Darley: And we need that strong light signal from the sun to suppress whatever melatonin is. And it's still on board. Uh, so that is really an important piece. I think that's missing of the conversation is the recommendation is at least 20 minutes of bright outside light. Um, in the first hour or two of the day, and I said, um, because you know, a common question crossed my mind and people say, Well, I sit next to the window or I drive.
Catherine Darley: You know, in the, in the first hour of my day. Is that enough light? And they're thinking I'm going to say yes. And actually, it's not. There's coatings on windows. The, [Page//00:07:00] um, you know, the ceiling is going to overhang enough that you're just not getting enough light.
Julie Michelson: I love that you brought that up. I get that. I live in Colorado, although I work with people all over, but I get that question all the time in the winter. It's easy, you know, and, and I love that you're starting, you know, if we're talking. Cycles and rhythms, right? Yes. What you do first thing in the morning actually really does impact your sleep.
Julie Michelson: And people are always like, wait, I said, I'm having sleep issues. So why are you talking to me about morning? Um, so when do you have other than like, you know, suck it up buttercup. Do you have any recommendations for those winter months? If people are somewhere cold to, you know, how do you make yourself get out there?
Catherine Darley: Yeah, I, I like, um, you know, there's no easy answer. You're, you're going to have to be in the cold weather to go outside and get enough light. Uh,
Julie Michelson: great because cold therapy is awesome. So I'm [Page//00:08:00] always, I'm
Catherine Darley: Yeah, there's benefit,
Julie Michelson: you know,
Catherine Darley: in some. Yes, and well and sometimes people ask about light boxes and there are certainly a place for not light boxes But myself as an astropathic physician I'm also keeping in mind all the other health benefits of being exposed to nature and going outside Yes, you can maybe replace with a light box, but you're not going to be getting The wonderful volatile chemicals from the trees.
Catherine Darley: That scent of pine actually stimulates our immune system. You're not going to get that if you're replacing the sunlight outdoors with a light box indoors. So it's really, um, kind of acknowledging that we human beings are meant to be. We have been most of human history embedded in nature. And when you step away from nature, you just cannot replicate.
Catherine Darley: The entire benefits of [Page//00:09:00] nature inside. It's just not possible.
Julie Michelson: I love that. That's, it's true. It's so true. And I love the grace. You're not like, Oh, you have to get up and run outside, you know, within the first 10 minutes of lifting your head off the pillow. So You know, even if it's moms who have to get kids off to school, whatever it is, like we can all create. No, nobody has the time.
Julie Michelson: We have to create the time and really prioritize. Um, so let's talk a little more about, you know, for people that are like, well, I've heard of circadian rhythm, you know, what I know you know it. It sounds obvious to us. But you know, why are we even? Why do we care that we used to live, you know, without electricity and artificial light?
Catherine Darley: Yeah. So our circadian circa means, uh, around and dn means day. So that's around a day. And we, in our body, every organ system has this [Page//00:10:00] 24 hour pattern where it does more or less of its function at different times of day. Many of our systems are set to kind of. Slow down during nighttime during sleep a really common example that people, most people can identify with is our digestive tract.
Catherine Darley: Our digestive tract is set to be active and easily digest food during the day, but not at night. So if you have ever stayed up late for a special event or worked overnight, studied overnight, got up super early for a travel day, And tried to eat at a time that you're usually asleep. Often, the food just sits there.
Catherine Darley: It just does not digest. People get an upset stomach because their circadian rhythm of digestion is set to be off and less active at night. Uh, and, you know, we could go through every organ system has times of day that it does [Page//00:11:00] more or less of its work.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. And especially anybody with autoimmunity or any kind of chronic illness or inflammation. I'm often focusing on the systems that are actually really working while we're sleeping and getting restorative sleep, like detox, like, you know, glymphatic cleaning, brain cleaning, you know, there's, there are some healing, there's a lot of repair happening at night.
Julie Michelson: You know, beautiful, good, like even people sleeping, maybe we'll get to that too, but like, does it matter what time you sleep and can, can we influence and we do in a way that's not healthy? Is there a way to influence, you know, our patterns? I know so many people who think that they're super sleepers, um, until we.
Julie Michelson: Show them they're not. Um, and I know, you know, genetically, there's this tiny little percentage of the population that's a super sleeper, but if you really think four hours of sleep at night is enough for [Page//00:12:00] you, you're probably wrong.
Catherine Darley: Right. The thing that
Julie Michelson: like, what's that range? Does it matter if you sleep, you know, if you go to bed really late?
Julie Michelson: Again, we're talking circadian, so sun cycles, day cycles.
Catherine Darley: yes. So we do think about people being strongly morning types, evening types or neither. Most people are going to be kind of middle of the road and not strongly. And I think about this. Uh, you know, people fall on this bell curve of what their circadian chronotype is or biorhythm is another phrase. And I think it's best to honor that.
Catherine Darley: Think about it like your height, you know, you might be tired and kind of slouch. That's what I do. If I'm tired. You might be. Proud and happy and standing tall, but your height doesn't vary much and similarly Whether you're a morning person or a night person or neither doesn't vary much So what I like people to connect [Page//00:13:00] with is if the whole world was on your schedule What hours would you keep?
Catherine Darley: You know, if the banking hours, the work hours, the family hours, all of those things that we adjust ourselves to, if they were on your rhythm, what hours would you naturally sleep? Cause people have a time that they, uh, will feel sleepy and a time that they feel ready to To wake up. And that is actually set deep in the brain.
Catherine Darley: And that is why I think it's best, first of all, to align your lifestyle with that, if possible. And then if it's not possible, you can use precisely times light and darkness and melatonin at the right timing has a little bit of an effect. Also, you could shift your body clock a little bit, but as soon as you remove those interventions, you're going to bounce right back to.
Catherine Darley: What your natural set point is.
Julie Michelson: Amazing. And so maybe silly question, I think of, [Page//00:14:00] you know, winter, um, again, back to cycles, right? So we've, we don't have a lot of daylight in the winter. I do believe thousands of years ago, we were sleeping more in the winter. I mean, is that, you know what I mean, throughout the year, are we to be adjusting or does it not matter?
Julie Michelson: Yes.
Catherine Darley: Oh, absolutely. People. Human beings sleep more in the winter when they're in natural light, dark conditions. And there's, uh, you said you're in Colorado. There's actually some great research coming out of sleep labs in Colorado where they're taking people camping They did it for a week, but then they did it just just for a weekend.
Catherine Darley: And a weekend of camping in the winter, uh, people will have elevated melatonin for about two hours more a night and sleep, um, a little less than two hours more, but they will sleep significantly longer, uh, just in a weekend [Page//00:15:00] of not having that, uh, electric light input.
Julie Michelson: I believe it. And again, how do you, like, for me, I, I sleep just amazing when I go camping and I'm a princess, but when I go camping, I, I sleep the best, but some of that also it's the light, but it's also the nature, the Smells the sounds, you know, all, all the things, um, but I think that we've just gotten so far away from giving ourself, like you said, listening to our bodies and giving ourself that permission of, you know, like, oh, it's, it's been dark now.
Julie Michelson: I mean, it is a little rough. I was in the UK last or two months ago. Um, and. I mean, it doesn't get light until like 9 30 in the morning, and it's dark at three, you know, those are really short days. It is definitely hard to be productive if you're really listening to your body in that environment. But, you know, somehow we need to figure that out, like that combining [Page//00:16:00] the modern society with natural cycles.
Catherine Darley: Right. And I think actually getting outside in the morning will help with that because you get this natural, uh, energy boost when you get that daylight, uh, in the morning that can kind of fuel your day. The other concern that I have. about, um, you know, not having enough darkness at night. Cause that's the other flip side of the coin.
Catherine Darley: We're not getting enough light during the day, but we're not getting enough darkness at night. Um, is that without adequate darkness, our melatonin doesn't, uh, elevate and it's not released for as many hours of the night. And melatonin is known as the hormone of darkness. It does help us. It also, once the melatonin is released from the brain, it enters our circulation and it sends to every cell in [Page//00:17:00] the body, which has melatonin receptors.
Catherine Darley: It's nighttime. Time to switch into this nighttime physiology. The third piece that melatonin does for us, it is a very strong antioxidant, a very strong anti inflammatory. It also has neuroprotective properties. It helps with bone reformation, keeping strong bones, many other actions. And if we are Constantly getting some light in the night and suppressing our melatonin, what's the consequence going to be over years or decades of having, you know, potentially two hours less of melatonin activity night after night after night.
Catherine Darley: That is a question I have. I'm hoping researchers are looking at it. I haven't seen any research that looks directly at that, you know, Light pollution is so prevalent. It's over 80 percent of human beings on earth are under light pollution at night. So it's [Page//00:18:00] it's going to even be hard to find populations that don't have this chronic melatonin suppression.
Julie Michelson: Because we're never gloom and doom, and we'll get to, there are steps we can all take
Catherine Darley: Oh, totally.
Julie Michelson: our sleep. And so we talked about, you know, first thing, kind of non negotiable, so impactful. I think if you didn't change anything else, you would still feel the difference if you get outside and get that sunlight in the morning.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. Um. You know, if somebody is just starting on this journey of like, okay, fine, you know, I did the food. I did the time, you know, I'm ready. I'm going to, I'm going to work on sleep. And they, they've been doing that, or they've started that, um, you know, what is your position on supplementing with melatonin, uh, for the people that know, you know, we're not even just talking right now about schedules and light, but people that actually know they struggle with sleep.
Julie Michelson: Um, yeah. Just curious because [Page//00:19:00] I, I have heard, you know, everybody has an opinion. Yours is educated. So I want to know what it is.
Catherine Darley: sure. Um, my view on using melatonin supplements is that there is, it is appropriate at times that some of the considerations for people to make and check with their health care provider around is the dose. What is the right dose for the purpose I'm taking it for? Because there are many sleep circadian and other conditions that people might take melatonin.
Catherine Darley: Is the what's the right dose from one to three milligrams is what we typically think of or even 0. 3 to three milligrams is what we think of in that sleep and circadian rhythm disorders. There's no evidence that above three works better for sleep or circadian conditions. So that's something to keep in mind.
Catherine Darley: The other thing you want to think about is the format. Is it immediate release or [Page//00:20:00] is it time release people who are falling asleep easily at the beginning of the night but are having those middle of the night wake ups, it might be more appropriate to take a time release type of format. formula. Uh, you also want to think about the timing.
Catherine Darley: If you have a circadian rhythm disorder, then the timing is not necessarily going to be right at bedtime like it would be for insomnia. And then the last thing I like to think about is either phytomelatonin or synthetic. Um, I'm a fan of the phytomelatonin because the plants have lots of other benefits and.
Catherine Darley: The synthetic could potentially have contaminants from the manufacturing process, uh, still in the compound. So that's, you know, those are some of the things to think about and make sure that you're getting the right. Uh, dose, timing, format, formula, source, all of that.
Julie Michelson: Simple. No, I'm kidding.
Catherine Darley: Well,
Julie Michelson: So, [Page//00:21:00] so, and what about this idea, um, that if you're supplementing with melatonin, you're gonna suppress your, your body's production of melatonin. Is that true or is that a fallacy?
Catherine Darley: that is a fallacy. There does not seem to be any feedback loop where your melatonin gets to a certain level and it feeds back and shuts down your melatonin, your production of melatonin. The part that is still, uh, an open question that's being investigated is whether Long term supplementation changes the receptors for melatonin.
Catherine Darley: It doesn't seem to be true, but I know it is something that's still being investigated and not quite conclusive yet.
Julie Michelson: Okay. And I do think, as it seems like, as more information and studies come out around melatonin, some of these things like the immuno protective, you know, it just seems like we're learning a lot more and more good stuff. Right. I think a recent [Page//00:22:00] virus had a lot to do with this, like seeing melatonin in a new light.
Julie Michelson: Um, and so let's circle back and that was unintentional pun there to the circadian cycle. So in the mornings. We, we want the sunlight and we want to trigger like, okay, let's suppress melatonin, let's release cortisol, time to wake up, be productive, go do your thing, catch something, right? You want to eat tonight?
Julie Michelson: Go catch something. Um, so, you know, where, and I know that there's, but there are some things that are universal. So what are your other big kind of like, you know, wait, I We mentioned it's, you know, yes, it's do this, don't do that, but also do this, don't do that.
Catherine Darley: Yeah. Yeah. So I think about it as a sleep healthy lifestyle. You get up, you have some light in the first couple hours, and then every two hours or so you go out and get a Sun break and even if it's overcast, it's still gonna [Page//00:23:00] be worth it. Plus, you know, that wraps in the benefits of moving and not sitting all the time, getting nature, taking a mental break from your tasks, lots of benefits from that.
Catherine Darley: And then,
Julie Michelson: off when you go out there. Stand barefoot.
Catherine Darley: yes. I don't know if I wanna do that today in the snow,
Julie Michelson: Although I, I have a client, he lives in the mountains. So there's been snow, you know, since it started, he'll have snow for the rest of the winter. And he's so hooked on grounding now that he's going out in the snow. And I'm like, okay, well, just be careful, you know, um. But, or again, any kind of stacking, but if we're getting true sunlight, we're, we're in nature.
Julie Michelson: So, um, although if you're in a city still go outside, like that's, that's
Catherine Darley: Totally. Yeah, totally. Um, and then one of the factors that we didn't talk about that strengthens your circadian system, the light is more about the circadian system for your in your brain, but then we [Page//00:24:00] have circadian system in every tissue. That is more, um, synchronized by having meals at regular times.
Catherine Darley: That's something that many people don't realize has an impact on their circadian system and therefore on their sleep. You want to have meals start in the same 30 minute window all days of the week. So if you're starting breakfast between 7 and 7. 30 on a workday, you wanted to have it around that same time on weekdays.
Catherine Darley: Um, so that's part of having a sleep healthy lifestyle. One thing that people often ask me is exercise. What time is the best time for exercise? And actually, for sleep, Um, exercise timing can shift your circadian rhythm. So if you want to have an easy time falling asleep fairly early and getting up earlier, then you want to exercise before four o'clock in the afternoon.[Page//00:25:00]
Catherine Darley: If you want to shift your body clock later so that you stay up later and you wake up later, 7 p. m. or after is the best time to exercise.
Julie Michelson: I love that. And a lot of things impact our, I know I can't, if I do sauna in the evening. My, I just, my body temperature stays a little bit elevated for me to get optimal deep sleep. Um, so, and I'm not saying everybody has to track, although eventually it's nice to play with at some point. But we, you know, we need to consider, you know, what our routine is and, and, and I love that you, you touched on.
Julie Michelson: I want to, I want to circle back and highlight, so we're not supposed to, you know, catch up on sleep on the weekends and, and get up early during the week and then sleep in on the weekends.
Catherine Darley: Yeah, unfortunately, no, what happens is that people, after just three nights of being partially sleep deprived, you lose insight into how negatively impacted your performance is. You start to think, Oh, well, I guess [Page//00:26:00] I got used to only six hours of sleep. If you met, if we measure your performance, it's still very impaired, but just our sensation Um, impairment is lost.
Catherine Darley: So that's one concern. And the other thing that, um, we kind of have known, but some new research that's really well done and a very large number of participants just in the last couple months has shown that we, variability is part of what we need to be looking at, not just the number of hours of sleep, but the variability.
Catherine Darley: So the recommendation is that your bedtime and your wake time don't vary by more than 30 minutes. It's across the week or across the month, and that your total sleep time, whether it's seven hours, eight hours, nine hours, uh, doesn't vary more than 60 minutes across the week. So those are some targets that people can aim for.
Julie Michelson: I like that. That's, that's great information, actually. I think, I mean, I think all of it's great [Page//00:27:00] information, um, but, and I love as we're learning more and more and more, what about napping?
Catherine Darley: Yeah. So, um, I think that napping is fine for some people. They struggle to get enough hours of sleep at night. I'm thinking about high school students, college students, you know, people who have naturally a much more night owl schedule, but yet they have to get up early for school, going to school and then coming home and taking a nap from two 30 to four every day.
Catherine Darley: And then having more energy for the evening, I think can be positive. So naps should be either 30 minutes or a full hour and a half sleep cycle. You don't want to wake up out of deep sleep because you won't feel good and it'll take about 20 minutes to get with the program. And you want to take your naps earlier in the afternoon, not in the evening or after dinner or
Julie Michelson: Not right before bedtime.
Catherine Darley:[Page//00:28:00] Yeah, right.
Julie Michelson: makes sense. That's perfect. So we're intentionally getting sunlight in the morning. We're taking our sun breaks every two hours. Um, and I think that that's just a prescription. Everybody can claim,
Catherine Darley: Yes,
Julie Michelson: um, then what, what are, what are we doing? Because you hear all this talk about blue light, blue light, where are you and I are on screens right now?
Julie Michelson: Um, people that, yeah. Some people don't even have a choice. I, I know when I built this house, they thought I was insane because I said, I only incandescent lights in my house. And they were like, we don't do that anymore. I'm like, I'll worry about where I'm going to get my light bulbs. That's what I want you to put in the house.
Julie Michelson: Because, you know, I didn't want a lot of blue light being thrown, but we can't always control all of that. So how, what do you prescribe?
Catherine Darley: Yeah. So I have got a couple ideas on that. One is the reason, sometimes I find like it's more motivating if you know the why, [Page//00:29:00] more sunlight has much more blue in the morning. And so that's why we respond with wakefulness to blue light. If you look at sunlight in the evening, it's much more that reddish pinkish.
Catherine Darley: Hue of sunset and it doesn't have much blue and that's why it helps us be ready for sleep. So some strategies and some information. You're supposed to be in 10 lux or less for three hours before bed. One tip is people can put on their phone a Um, if you, you know, three hours, I think is pretty hard because people are often still in their productive task oriented part of their day.
Catherine Darley: If that is you, you can put on blue blocking glasses. These are mine,
Julie Michelson: These are mine.
Catherine Darley: Yeah, they [Page//00:30:00] they live overnight on my bedside table and during the day they usually live on my coffee table because that's where I spend my evenings. Um, you when you're getting blue blocking glasses, you really want them to have this reddish color of lens.
Catherine Darley: Uh, yours are more.
Julie Michelson: These are my daytime just for the assault from the screens. What about I have, because again, we talked about, you know, I don't want to wear two pair of glasses anymore. Um, I have red lights in my, in my bedroom, just regular and in certain lamps. It's the bulbs are red because when the sun goes down, that's the light I want feelings on that.
Julie Michelson: What do you think?
Catherine Darley: I think that's a great strategy. And what, um, what I've done in my home, because I don't want to have red per se, is that I,
Julie Michelson: a bit like a brothel from the outside. I have had, I live in the country, but I have clients that live in neighborhoods and people are wondering what's happening in [Page//00:31:00] their houses at night.
Catherine Darley: right, right. So I have, um, some strings of twinkle lights that I've placed really carefully and artfully around my living room and then also in the bedroom so that we can turn those on and guess just gets a really nice, almost candlelight colored glow. They are, um, they look like incandescent lights.
Catherine Darley: They're not like a bright fluorescent LED
Julie Michelson: thank you for clarifying. I was going to say, but because so many now, you know, everything has moved in that direction. Um, so good to know you can still find that really soothing, soft twinkle light.
Catherine Darley: yeah, it is. It looks very, um, you know, it looks it looks lovely. And then I also in each room I have a lamp that is meant to be for wind down time and it's either for It's either aimed up or it's on a table and it's low enough and has a shade so that the light is [Page//00:32:00] never directly on your eyes. And in those, I have put older style incandescent and dim bulbs.
Catherine Darley: And so, um, yeah, I think it's a great, you know, 10 minute fun project, particularly if you've got kids or if you've got folks who love the science and the measuring is to put the lux meter on your Adjust the lighting to where it's 10 lux or less, and that you can have that for your wind down time. I also like to use tech to put a wind down alarm on the phone two hours before
Julie Michelson: Sound like a health coach.
Catherine Darley: Yeah, exactly.
Julie Michelson: Yep, that's it. So and does it matter? We and I do the same as you. I'm always going backwards from bedtime because again, I don't think it's realistic for most of us to be in the dark when the sun goes down with the way modern life is. I couldn't run two businesses if I literally like I would just have to pack it up in the winter.
Julie Michelson:[Page//00:33:00] Um, so it really doesn't matter. It's whatever your rhythm and cycle is, Which will probably adjust as you're making some of these changes anyway. Um, but really just that working backwards from bed.
Catherine Darley: Yes, absolutely. And there is research both in people who have insomnia and who have a delayed sleep wake phase, which is kind of an extreme form of being a night owl, that wearing the blue blocking glasses either for two hours before bed or starting at 9 p. m. shifts sleep onset, uh, hours earlier and also improves total sleep time.
Catherine Darley: So I think, you know, at this point, pretty much everybody needs to have a pair of blue blockers that they can wear, um, in the evenings.
Julie Michelson: And side note, if you're like me and you have blue blockers in your prescription glasses and you're going outside for your sun break, take your glasses [Page//00:34:00] off and don't be wearing sunglasses out. Like, this is sunlight in your eyes. You know, um, don't, you don't have to stare at the sun, but getting that light.
Julie Michelson: in your eyes is, is essential. And I love, you're very gentle. I have, I really literally have friends that only use candlelight at night and as committed as I am to wellness, that's just not realistic for me and for most people. Like I, it's one of those things, like if I'm not doing it, it's tough to do.
Julie Michelson: And, and so I love that these suggestions are all doable.
Catherine Darley: Yeah. Yeah. And I like to, you know, as a clinician, as a physician, I like to have the attitude that better is better, you know, if you end up half an hour before bedtime, dimming the lights and, and, and, um, putting aside your devices. And instead of having everything bright as day until you turn out the lights for sleep, that is better.
Catherine Darley:[Page//00:35:00] And I applaud you, you know, making these kinds of, I mean, I don't think there's anything harder actually than changing your habits. Changing your habits is like,
Julie Michelson: That's where better is better and one step, but don't listen to this episode and run out. Yeah, you can do the lights and all the, you know, but don't try to do all of it right away. You know, start with one step. I would say start with the morning. I don't know.
Catherine Darley: I think that, yeah, the morning light. Is definitely something that doesn't get enough attention and could be new information for people.
Julie Michelson: yeah, I love that. Amazing. So what is one step? We, we talked about a bunch of them and I just kind of did circle back to one so you can pick out. Whatever you want, you can reiterate. It could be something you haven't mentioned yet, but what's one thing that listeners can start doing today to improve their health?
Catherine Darley: Well, since we're recording after breakfast, I'm going to say the one thing that you could do today is [Page//00:36:00] set the alarm on your phone for an hour or more before bed and at that time, dim the lights to 10 lux or put on blue blockers. That, I think, you will notice the difference within a few days,
Julie Michelson: I love that. Awesome. That's such great advice. And again, very coach approach is people think, Oh, I heard this. I'm going to remember that's easy. No, you're not set an alarm. Um, because the point isn't to push bedtime later because you forgot to get off your screens. Um, and, and again, that gentle. You know, ideal would be no screens, no, you know, like let's all we, but we're not going for perfect.
Julie Michelson: We're going for better. And so I, I love your approach
Catherine Darley: great. Thank you, Julie.
Julie Michelson: before we wrap up for people listening in their car, on their jog, on their walk, on the go, where's the best place to find you
Catherine Darley: so I'm on social media at Skilled Sleeper, [Page//00:37:00] Instagram, YouTube, Substack. And then I have online courses for, that are customized for different unique demographics and the needs for ones for women, ones for shift workers, ones for families. And you could find those at skilledsleeper. com.
Julie Michelson: love it, Catherine. Thank you so much. You've shared amazing gold with us today.
Catherine Darley: Thank you. So glad to be here. Sleep well, everyone.
Julie Michelson: For everyone listening, remember you can get the transcripts and show notes by visiting inspiredliving. show. Hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week. [Page//00:38:00]
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Dr. Catherine Darley
Sleep Medicine
Dr. Catherine Darley is the expert in natural sleep medicine. Having treated patients for over 20 years, she teaches the sleep skills people need to thrive through online course. Find her on social media, Youtube and Substack @skilledsleeper.
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