Episode 103
Sarah Turner:
Shining a Light on Health: Photobiomodulation and the Gut-Brain Connection with Sarah Turner
In this episode, I am joined by Sarah Turner, co-founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive, to discuss the fascinating field of photobiomodulation and its impact on the gut-brain connection. We delve into the science behind light therapy, the significance of the gut-brain connection, and the potential applications of this innovative therapy.
First Aired on: Sep 4, 2023
Episode 103
Sarah Turner:
Shining a Light on Health: Photobiomodulation and the Gut-Brain Connection with Sarah Turner
In this episode, I am joined by Sarah Turner, co-founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive, to discuss the fascinating field of photobiomodulation and its impact on the gut-brain connection. We delve into the science behind light therapy, the significance of the gut-brain connection, and the potential applications of this innovative therapy.
First Aired on: Sep 4, 2023
Table of Contents:
In this episode:
Main Topics Covered:
- Photobiomodulation and its health benefits
- The intricate gut-brain connection
- Impacts of light on the gut and microbiome
- The role of biophotons and their significance in health
Sarah’s Journey:
- Background in pharmaceutical research and nutritional medicine.
- Exploration into alternative approaches in California.
- Desire to blend scientific elements with holistic wellness.
Photobiomodulation:
- Research supports the health benefits of light therapy.
- The role of light in the gut-brain connection.
The Gut-Brain-Immune Connection:
- Immune responses and neurotransmitters starting in the gut.
- Link between chronic inflammation and brain conditions.
- Importance of light therapy and various light devices available.
Delving into Light Wavelengths:
- Importance of red light for superficial treatments.
- Using longer wavelengths like infrared for deeper penetration.
Gut Health and Mental Well-being:
- Anxiety and depression influenced by gut imbalances.
- Microbiome's impact on mood and mental health.
- Case study: Improvement in anxiety with gluten-free diets.
Innovative Devices:
- Introduction to the Serrothrive device.
- Multi-wavelength device targeting both gut and brain.
- Safety and effectiveness considerations.
Light and the Human Body:
- Emission of light by the human body - biophotons.
- The speculated role of biophotons in brain communication.
Light, Health, and Energy:
- The interplay between light emissions, cellular health, and well-being.
- Current research on biophotonic emission in bacteria.
Alternative Therapies Vs. Pharmaceuticals:
- Benefits of non-invasive therapies.
- Risks associated with pharmaceutical interventions.
- Biphasic dose response: Finding the right treatment balance.
Practical Light Therapy Tips:
- Finding optimal light exposure duration.
- Understanding rest and recovery's importance.
Being Light Aware:
- Mindfulness of artificial light exposure.
- Benefits of blue blockers and screen breaks.
Other Resources:
Connect with Sarah Turner
Episode Transcript
Julie Michelson: [Page//00:00:00] Welcome back to the Inspired Living with Autoimmunity podcast. I'm your host, Julie Michelson. And today we're joined by Sarah Turner, co founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive, a red light system that specifically targets the gut brain connection. Sarah holds degrees in clinical neuroscience, psychological sciences, and nutritional medicine.
And in today's conversation, we discuss [Page//00:01:00] photobiomodulation and specifically how to use light therapy to support health by addressing the gut and the brain together.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Sarah Turner: Thank you. It's lovely to be here.
Julie Michelson: I'm so excited to just pick your brain today. And since we're going to be talking about brains, this'll, this'll be good, but I always love to hear personal story. You know, how did you get to, how did you decide I'm going to create this amazing product that focuses on the gut brain connection?
Sarah Turner: Sure. Well, my trajectory is kind of through maybe a lot of conventional medicine, and then to alternative, and now I've kind of settled on light therapy as a good middle ground. But I started off in pharmaceutical research, actually.
Julie Michelson: Oh, wow.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, so when I, during studying at university and [Page//00:02:00] then after I left, I was at various drug companies, Merck, Sharp and Dome, Glaxo.
I spent a fair amount of time in inhaled product research, so looking at asthma devices. And I did kind of come across the limitations of that kind of therapy in, in a way, you know, it became obvious, you know, that the drugs are good for certain things, but for these long term conditions, there are a lot of limitations there.
And so I switched to do nutritional medicine and I did that for a while and I set up a little health food shop and I had a nutrition consultancy. But again, there were even limitations there that I found. So I then went on to look at neuroscience and I studied clinical neuroscience in London. And after which time I went to California and got involved in the whole biohacking movement that was going on over there.
Julie Michelson: Which is how we met.
Sarah Turner: Exactly, at the Dave Asprey Biohackers Summit, and actually that was one of the places where I first started getting to really understand this concept of [Page//00:03:00] introducing biophysics into biology and health, into a health setting. And so I was working actually in Santa Cruz, California on a consciousness interface device, which is a fairly out there fringe science way of looking at information fields.
Julie Michelson: Wow. That's a, that's a long way away from pharmaceutical research,
Sarah Turner: it certainly is. Yeah. It's the two extremes really, because in pharmaceutical research, you really are kind of just following a program. You're, you've got very specific rules that you're following. You know, you have to follow good laboratory practice and it's. you know, you're quite confined. And then, you know, in this very alternative fringe science, you know, people are much more, you know, you're chucking all of that out and you're having to think about the body and science in a very different way.
So I feel like I did the two extremes. And then after doing that for a while, I kind of wanted to come back to something, which was a little bit more [Page//00:04:00] measurable, because although the alternative side is very interesting because we don't. can't yet measure it, or perhaps, you know, there's certain things that are not quite right there.
It's very difficult to really get your teeth into it and, and, say something with kind of any certainty, you know, there's a lot of, Oh, it could be this, you know, and, and a lot of people are open to that and that's great. And a lot of people are helped by that. But for me personally, I wanted to do something that was much more measurable, scientific, at least in the sense that you can.
document these effects and present them to people and, and, you know, speak to the scientific community as well as to the alternative health community. So that's why I really, I am now focused solely on photobiomodulation, which is just this long word for light therapy, because although the light therapy, of course, it is a little bit esoteric because nobody even really knows what light is, you know, so.
There has to be, there has to be, you know, some kind of [Page//00:05:00] intuitive, open minded way of looking at it. But for, at the same time, there is a lot of very credible, validated research, you know, there's, you know, 5, 000 peer reviewed studies on light therapy for a health application. So that's kind of where I've settled now.
I think I've found this ideal middle ground.
Julie Michelson: I love it because I, it really is. I always find it fascinating that the, what I are really foundational. Basics for humankind is now cutting edge science and wellness care. And so, and I, I think, you know, you say light therapy. I love the word photobiomodulation because It, it is, it's about changing our biology with light.
And so it's not just, you know, and there are so many different kinds of light and, and ways to use light to support health. How did you kind of narrow down [Page//00:06:00] into this gut brain connected area?
Sarah Turner: Yeah. Well, as I said to you, I did, I have a master's in neuroscience, so I was already sort of fixated on the brain. And then in doing a lot of this biohacking, I made a biohacking movie or at least co produced it with a friend of mine. I started to really understand this whole connected body piece. And, you know, if you want to have a good brain, you know, you can't, you can't isolate the brain from the rest of the body.
That's just not how things work. And so I got more and more interested in a kind of systemic approach to biology. And then this is especially important, actually, in photobiomodulation, because you're talking about getting light to the organ. You know, you're talking about actually irradiating a body part with light.
And when you think of the brain, It's not the most accessible organ in the body. You know, there are a lot of barriers, hair's a barrier, you know, bone is a barrier. It's kind of awkward to have this thing, you know, [Page//00:07:00] shining light onto the head, you know, the head is round, you know, you have to have something that contours to the, to the head to get, to actually get a chance even of getting.
a very small percentage of light to the brain. So that's why I started thinking one, there is a systemic, you know, there's a systemic part of it in that everything in the body is connected. And then there's also a very practical part of it in that it's difficult to get light to the brain. So if you really want to have the maximum chance of getting a good dose of light to the body, generally.
I think it's, you know, it makes sense to access something like the gut where you can deliver a lot of the light. And, you know, the effects of that are going to, you know, are going to get to the brain that all the blood that's in the gut is going to get to the brain. The microbiome that's in the gut talks to the brain, the vagus nerve talks to the brain.
So from my point of view, the whole gut brain connection is. is important in all chronic illness, but very specifically important in photobiomodulation when you're talking about getting light to the brain, [Page//00:08:00] you know, which isn't the easy, the easiest of jobs.
Julie Michelson: I love that. And I, I really love the newer, seemingly newer knowledge that, you know, that this two directional, we used to think, Oh, the brain is just in charge of the body and sending all the signals. And now we know, Oh, actually. There is, it's a two way street and, and a lot of stuff starts in the gut. And, you know, we've covered on the podcast many times before the importance of gut health and autoimmunity and, and immunity in general.
And so I, I love this. It just makes sense now that you've put it out there. If we want to get to the brain, you know, including the gut in that equation is essential.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, you're right. And from a point of view of immunity, you know, a lot of the immune responses in the brain, you know, do start in the gut. A lot of [Page//00:09:00] neurotransmitters start in the gut, like the endocannabinoid system. You know, we know that that is a link between brain immunity and the body generally, and our body is covered in these kind of receptors.
And all of these receptors, all of these systems seem to respond in some way to light therapy. You know, even, you know, the whole concept of. inflammation, you know, we now know a lot of brain conditions are caused by chronic inflammation. You know, if you reduce,
Julie Michelson: of them
Sarah Turner: most of them, if you, if you can kind of reduce the inflammation in the body, generally, you know, you've got a much better chance of dealing with.
issues that you have with the brain. So I think it is really super linked to the immune system, actually what's going on. And I think the gut is playing such a huge part in, in the immunity of the brain and you're right, you know, we kind of intuitively know this. And a lot of people who are into alternative medicine have been kind of banging this drum for a long time, but now in [Page//00:10:00] mainstream media, you know, if you go on LinkedIn, there's always a post there about a new disease that's been linked to the gut brain connection.
You know, we know about Parkinson's now there's an autistic spectrum disorder, addictive personality disorder. Every time people are starting to say, okay, Alzheimer's, yeah, all the kinds of neurodegeneration there does to be this link between the immune system, the gut and the brain.
Julie Michelson: which is, I just love this approach of, okay, if we're really focused on brain, you know, it's the inverse almost to, to most of the conversations out there. And knowing I'm Certified to recode Alzheimer's and dementia coach and knowing how essential, you know, the gut health is to improving brain function.
I love, I love that you're doing this. I want to talk a little bit. Because as you said, light therapy has become, [Page//00:11:00] you know, there, there's so many different ways. And what you're doing is really unique and, and cutting edge. And I'm sure there will be a lot of, a lot of companies following suit, but how do people know?
The different, I mean, there's so many different kinds of light, like, tell me a little bit more about how the audience can become educated as to what to look for in light devices. And maybe, you know, certain, certain lights going for certain things.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, you're right. There are a lot of products on the market, and I think it very much depends on what your health goal is on which of these products that you go for. Because, you know, if you've got like a bashed knee from an injury, you know, you'd probably want a different devices if you, if you've got some kind of predementia.
So I think the most important thing is to kind of decide, okay, what is the main purpose for the device. And then try and [Page//00:12:00] find devices, which have some degree of flexibility, because I think one of the main things that I found out about, you know, like therapy is of course, like travels in a straight line.
We know that, but this is very important for looking at the body and treating all different things on the body because the body's not flat, you know, so the panels are if you're a biohacker and you want to keep your body in a very good condition, but there may be not so good if you're looking to really get to a specific area.
You know, if you want to get like deep into a knee joint, or if you actually want to kind of get deep into the gut or very, especially if you want to get into the brain, you really need to have a device that contours to the body, you know, that's round. And so it would deliver light in the way that aids maximum penetration, because you've got to bear in mind, you've got these.
straight lines of light coming in. And then the other thing is also, you want to look at the color of light or the wavelength, because the longer the wavelength of light generally as a rule, the deeper it will travel into the [Page//00:13:00] body. So you'll see a lot of the devices on the market have a red light, which is usually in the range of like six, 600 to 650 nanometers.
And then a near infrared light, which is usually about 850, 810, 850 nanometers. And the reason why they have those two colors is because red light will only penetrate superficially. So, you know, if you're treating skin disorders or wounds or something, red light is great. But if you do want to get into that joint or onto the surface of the brain or into the gut, you do need a longer wavelength of light.
So you need something that's above 850 nanometers for that.
Julie Michelson: Okay. And, and that's, I think, essential for people to understand. And like you said, it goes back to what is your intention? What's your goal? And for me, I mean, and again, I'd like, if we could all do all of it,
Sarah Turner: Yes.
Julie Michelson: that would be ideal, but I can't think of any way in which it wouldn't make sense to prioritize brain [Page//00:14:00] health, whether you're a biohacker and you want to be up leveling and protecting from decline, or, you know, like we all, our brain health is essential to our quality of life, no matter what else is going on.
Sarah Turner: Yes. Well, yeah, that, that's been my take from the beginning. You know, if you've got a good brain and you are functioning well, you know, you can deal with, with most other things that are coming up. You know, even pain, you know, if your brain is working, if you've got enough sleep, you know, if you, if you are taking care of how you're doing mentally, you know, all of these things that the challenges become.
You can deal with them better. So I think, yeah, prioritizing the brain. And the way to do that is, you know, treat the gut, prioritize the brain. And then a lot of these other health conditions kind of come into focus a little bit more. And you're right, the preventative side, you know, we are, unfortunately, you know, we're coming, you know, we have a generation of people which are facing a lot of dementia because, you [Page//00:15:00] know, The rates are on the rise for all, all many different reasons.
So yeah, kind of maintaining good health as you age also, you know, by, by treating your brain first and foremost. Yeah. Yeah. For me, that seems to be, you know, where I always start is with brain health.
Julie Michelson: And, and have you found at all you know, if, cause I'm thinking, okay, you're treating gut and brain. And so people with gut issues, I would imagine that the panel on the belly is a great idea.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, it is. And, and I actually myself, I had a little bit of IBS. Maybe you call it IBD in the States, but you know, irritable bowel.
Julie Michelson: Both. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: And I have found that that has drastically diminished to the, to the point where I don't notice that anymore and, and I, and, but of course it's like, you can't say, Oh, the [Page//00:16:00] IBS has gone back, you know, and how does that affect the brain?
Because of course it, you know, we, we've spoke about, you know, you have this two way thing. Once you're fixing that issue, you're fixing the brain, you know, the fogginess goes, you know, all of that, the kind of anxiety piece goes. So yeah, I think this, this whole thing about gut brain. You know, I'm sure that this is going to be something that's treated routinely in the future for all of these different things, you know,
Julie Michelson: Gosh. I hope so.
Sarah Turner: it'd be
Julie Michelson: that's why we're having these conversations, right?
Sarah Turner: exactly right. Because it's like Parkinson's, as you've mentioned, you know that often the gut symptoms come a long time before the brain symptoms, you know,
Julie Michelson: Sure. And I, I love that you just specifically mentioned anxiety because anxiety and depression are things that people tend to, you neurotransmitter or something going on, but that step to gut.
Sarah Turner: yes.
Julie Michelson: sometimes a bigger leap for people. And I, I just had [Page//00:17:00] a conversation yesterday with somebody was sharing a story about a past client who didn't come to me for anxiety, but really struggled.
She was a high functioning, anxious person. And through what we, you know, just diet change and gut health support that we were doing for her other issues. All of a sudden her anxiety was gone and, and this was a very targeted, simple, it was gluten, you know, when she put it back in and, and that's not uncommon.
I see it a lot. And so it makes, I just want to kind of drive home, you know, we're talking about, I love focusing on dementia and brain health and longevity, but also, you know, the mood disorders really, really are driven by gut health or can
Sarah Turner: right.
Julie Michelson: Right.
Sarah Turner: And it's so interesting now, all of the discoveries they're making with the microbiome, you know, because when you [Page//00:18:00] think about the human body, you know, we kind of take ownership of this body, but actually, we're a lot less human cells than we are bacterial cells. You know, we're kind of
Julie Michelson: we're
Sarah Turner: A collage of all these different organisms that all have their different needs and wants.
So, you know, if you have a lot of these kind of detrimental bacteria in your gut, of course they're putting out their own chemicals, you know, they're doing their own thing. And now they've kind of seen that. A lot of people who have a lot of anxiety disorders, depression, those kinds of things, they a lot of dysbiosis.
There's a lot of this. Potentially not so beneficial bacteria and they're putting out compounds that are getting to your brain, you know, and then that's could be the cause of some of the depression. So some of this isn't really, you know, maybe not even coming from you as in you, the human, you know, it's coming from your bacterial compadres that are in there doing their own thing.
So tackling that, you know, really getting to grips with your gut bacteria. Doing all of [Page//00:19:00] those things, of course, that could have a huge effect on all of these different kinds of. Moods, even, you know, something as simple as being able to sleep. I saw a really interesting paper the other day about addictive personality disorder.
You know, a lot of people's addictions, you know, the cravings can be coming from, you know, what the bacteria wants, you know.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. I, we, I deal with that a lot with any kind of yeast or Candida overgrowth driving sugar cravings just, and we all know sugar is really addictive. We also know it's inflammatory but I try to get people to shift and think, okay, you know, as you're having that, like, that's not you, you're not the one screaming to be fed.
It's. These, these other organisms and yeah, and so it is, I mean, we, we just don't even realize that we are not always in charge
Sarah Turner: yes. And I think that's quite liberating because the okay I, you [Page//00:20:00] know, I can do something about this, because you know if it's as simple as you know focus on your gut bacteria really try to, like you say, it's difficult to remove the sugar because you've got these creatures that are crying for the sugar,
Julie Michelson: because they're going to die if you don't feed them sugar, which you want.
Sarah Turner: what they've all got their agenda. So yeah, but it enables you to do things, you know, like therapy has been shown to change the microbiome, dietary change has been shown, simple things like circadian biology, you know, timing your body more with the body's natural rhythms, you know, enables those beneficial bacteria to grow because, you know, they have their optimal environments too.
Julie Michelson: And I would assume I'm not, this is not scientific, but it just, in the way my brain works, I think of, you know, the red light or the light on the gut. Nurturing the good bacteria, those things that, that we want. I always, I just think of it as a positive thing. I don't know the mechanism of action, but I,
Sarah Turner: Well, you know, I
Julie Michelson: increase [Page//00:21:00] the good, there's less room for the bad.
Sarah Turner: and, and I think actually at the moment, because the science is so new, you know, we don't entirely know how it's working. I mean, there's a whole field now called photo bios, which is the study of light on bacteria. And certainly in an animal model, there does seem to be a direct correlation If you shine light onto a a rodent, for example.
And then do stall analysis, you can see very directly a correlation between shining light onto the gut and a change in the microbe composition and that probably is you are actually shining light on the bacteria directly because remember bacteria and mitochondria, you know, probably have a similar. Evolutionary history and, and the mitochondria is, is really the main light receiver in the body.
In, in humans, I don't know if we are so sure about that because, you know, humans come in different shapes and sizes and yet light seems to have an effect on the microbiome regardless of, you know, how much light you're getting into the actual gut area. But I think you're right. I think what's really [Page//00:22:00] going on is you're Allowing the body to return to a homeostasis where you have the right conditions in the gut, you know, you have oxygenated blood going to the gut, you have a decrease in inflammatory chemicals in the gut.
Then that enables, you know, you create a good environment for the good bacteria to proliferate. So I think it, it could be that you're shining light directly into the bacteria, but I think maybe more likely at this stage with the, with the light panels and the light pads, is that you are, enabling the correct environment for those good bacteria to grow.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Which is, is, it is the same as diet change and I wouldn't do one or the other. I would do both, but that's just, that's just my approach. You know, support in, in every way, shape or, or form. Let's talk a little bit more specifically about the Sarah Thrive. Like, let's, because it is different than any I've seen.
I've been in the [Page//00:23:00] biohacking world since 2016. I've seen a lot of. Like you said, you know, the light panels are popular. I've seen like, you know, you name it. I've seen a lot of different kind of lights. And so let's talk a little specific and you mentioned some of the things already. But for people who haven't seen a prototype, or, you know, don't don't know exactly what it what it looks like and what it's doing.
Let's talk about that.
Sarah Turner: Yes, sure. Thank you. Yeah. So, so the serothrive device, it's a system. So it's two devices actually. So, you know, we've, we've kind of spoken exactly why you'd want to have a gut brain, a gut, a clear brain and one for your gut. So it's, it has a panel, actually a flat panel with the two wavelengths I've mentioned.
So it has the 630 and 850 light that goes directly over the abdomen. And then at the same time there is a headband and the headband fits very flush to the forehead where you don't have the hair so you have one less [Page//00:24:00] barrier to get through. It does have one little unit that goes on the back that you can kind of just hopefully poke a little bit under the hairline there.
And these are clusters and in these clusters there is actually four wavelengths, because In the brain I think probably water is one of the chromophores that's going to be important. So after about 940 nanometers, water starts to absorb light. So in the brain band, there's the red light to get the blood around the head.
And then there's also the 850 to penetrate through the skull and then 940 and 1070. So there's four different wavelengths of light. So you're getting to that surface of the brain at the same time as the gut. And then another thing that we can do with the, with the light going to the brain, which is very interesting is we can pulse that light at certain frequencies, because we know that the brain is oscillating at certain frequencies.
We have certain brain waves that are predominant at certain times, depending what we're doing, you know, whether we're alert and focused, [Page//00:25:00] whether we're asleep, whether we're kind of daydreaming, our brain is oscillating at different frequencies. And by providing the light in these different frequencies, you can, you can have an effect on the brain state there.
And this is interesting for those conditions we spoke about for things like anxiety, depression, dementia, where people maybe get stuck in a certain brain state. So that's very, that's a very interesting, like additional function or feature of this device is that we can change. Not only can we change the wavelength of the light, we can also change the, the rate of oscillation, the Hertz oscillation.
So there are six different programs in the Sera system for six different brain wellness applications.
Julie Michelson: And I, and just because I've seen the device, you mentioned the, the flat pad and it is a pad. So we talked, we touched on earlier that you want something that's going to form to you. And so [Page//00:26:00] I was able to see all different sizes and shapes. Easily use their thrive at the conference. We were both at and so I think that I just wanted to loop back to that where the difference of just having a panel in front of you.
You have this pad that is directly on
Sarah Turner: it on. Yeah, you can strap it, you can kind of attach it with Velcro and you can put the headband on. And that was one of the other criteria that I wanted because if you said, you know, we're trying to do all the things all the time. But I think one of the barriers is if you have to actually kind of sit by an electrical output, you know, do, you know, I know for me, you know, I'm rushing around all the time, sometimes carving out that time after you've done all your morning routine and everything else that the biohackers are meant to do.
It's just another barrier to the therapy. So this has a rechargeable battery, a shielded rechargeable battery. So that, so that you can stack your hacks.
Julie Michelson: And you just mentioned a really good point that I want to [Page//00:27:00] hit on because I am, I'm that person who always goes to the, but what about the EMFs? And what about the Bluetooth? And what about the, so let, let's touch on that. You mentioned the battery is shielded cause that, you know, you have a device on your head.
You want to make sure you're not doing damage while you're trying to do something good.
Sarah Turner: Yeah. You don't want to do more harm than good. You're right. And so one of the criteria for designing this device was that the battery had to be totally shielded. And I have one of those cornet meters. That I actually gave to the engineer and said, it has to always be on the green reading of this.
And so, you know, they're kind of looking at me as if I'm nuts, but they kind of type in the spec. And we had that down as one of the criteria and then with the app, it is app controlled. So there is a Bluetooth that's giving the command of whatever. selection you might have for the pulsing, but then on top of the device, there is a disable switch.
So as soon as you've selected your program, you disable the Bluetooth [Page//00:28:00] onto the headband, and then there's no Bluetooth going in or out of that for the duration of the session. And for, and you know, people don't have to use the app if they don't want to use the app. If you just want to use it on,
Julie Michelson: program over and over. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: that program which was the continuous mode.
You don't even have to have the app. But, but like I say, I'm quite happy that with the Bluetooth disabled switch, you're not getting any of that kind of non native DMF that you don't want going in there.
Julie Michelson: And I think that's often overlooked by people, you know, there's lots of the, the, the more time marches on the more gadgets and devices and wonderful things that we, that we get to have but also if you can't turn that Bluetooth off, you know, the, the trackers, it just drives me crazy, the, you know, I have one that I've had for a long time because I can, I can put it on airplane mode and it's still doing its thing.
But it's not, it's not doing anything to me. It's just here for me. And so that was actually [Page//00:29:00] one of my most favorite parts of your, of your device is like, wow, she really, you can tell it's biohacker created. Because these are the details, you know, it's, it's like having to me like hydrogen water in plastic, like no, no, I don't want the plastic, figure it out another way.
So I, I love that you really, I think have covered all angles and I believe I overheard you saying you guys will continue to add programs through time, right? It has, it has yeah,
Sarah Turner: At the moment we have six programs and they're ones that have been worked out for a kind of basic functions like focus, energize, meditation. There's a balanced one in there, but I've been working with some scientists actually who are more on the physics side that are looking at creating apps to maybe activate certain neurotransmitters or things like that.
[Page//00:30:00] Now at the moment it's a little bit untested. So you know that's. Process that we're going through, but I'm hoping if we can get some good results with, with different kinds of frequency programs, we can introduce those as we get them developed. And so the, the headband has been designed so that you can update, you can update the apps that you want to use just through the.
The app on the phone. So yeah, as new developments come up and people say, okay, well, we think that this way, you know, this frequency pulsing, you know, maybe even a program, you know, I know people who are very granular in how they're, how they're working out these pulsing, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a straight line.
Right. Hertz, like on and off. And in fact, even in this device, we don't just deliver, for example, if we're doing 10 Hertz, it's not just 10 times a second. It's in a variable. It's kind of 10 times a second average, but variable because the body's very variable. You know, we know that the body likes [Page//00:31:00] variation because within variation there's flexibility and that's why heart rates not consistent.
You know, that's why brain waves are not consistent because the body has a built in flexibility there. So I'm hoping.
Julie Michelson: like flexibility equals resilience is kind of how I look at, I know, which, so I think that's brilliant that it's not just, you know, a set specific, you know, equally spaced kind of a pattern. Cause then I feel like you just get into another loop. It's just a different loop at that point.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, and it's not how the body works. It's not how the body processes information, the body, you know, it has information that, well, it seems random, but it has a pattern and it has a pattern for the reason, like you say, it's resilience, it's flexibility, you know, if you're sitting still and the tiger would jump through this window.
Now I need my heart to pretty much speed up.
Julie Michelson: let's get online. Yeah
Sarah Turner: There needs to be that there needs to be that variation, you know, and if you're stuck in a [Page//00:32:00] repetitive, you know, it's harder to change. So, so definitely as we learn more about how to deliver light, we can update that. And I'd like to say I think this is something that it's, this is the piece that's taking off now because people know that like therapy works, but what is the best way to deliver light, what is the best way to pulse light, you know, Can you post different wavelengths to get different effects?
So I think that's now where a lot of the research is going. And, you know, I think we can be much more specific in the future about the application of, of the different kinds of light and the different pulsing schedules.
Julie Michelson: which is exciting. And as you said, this is where the research is going so that you know, there will be more and more information Scientific I do love you really are Dancing that, you know, definitely pure science, but cutting edge at the same time and, and pushing barriers. That's how we learn and, and [Page//00:33:00] make progress.
So I am excited about that. How, how do people find Sarah Thrive?
Sarah Turner: Thank you. Yeah. At the moment it's Sarah thrive. com. People can go to the website, Sarah thrive. com. And then I have. Most of the socials, I must admit I'm not, I'm not brilliant on the socials, but definitely LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook is there with Sarah Thrive or the Sarah system. But all of it can be accessed through the website, sarahthrive.
com is probably the easiest way for people to find out. And I'm just sarah at sarahthrive. com if people want to reach out to me directly.
Julie Michelson: Which they should. She's, you're, you're brilliant and you're fun and, and you make the science accessible. You know, I can sit here and understand what you're saying and I'm sure listeners are understanding as well. And it really is kind of food for thought. I, I have a question. [Page//00:34:00] Because you're the right person to answer it.
You know, we're talking about adding light, right? The body receiving light and specifically the brain. Does the brain, do we emit light at all?
Sarah Turner: Yeah, we do emit light. Yeah, we, we, we emit ultra weak photonic emissions, which is sometimes called biophotons. And yeah, we're, we're emitting biophotons all the time. And actually this is maybe one of the ways that light is working in the brain because when you stimulate the mitochondria, it's really the mitochondria that are producing these kind of ultra weak photonic emissions.
And so perhaps that's setting up a cascade and it's a different communication to neural communication, you know, we already know that things are going on in the brain far faster than the nervous system can account for, you know, there's something else going on and people have put forward all different theories, living matrix theory, maybe it's a piezoelectric [Page//00:35:00] effect going on there or so yeah, I think probably this.
The bio photons, which were actually were discovered many, many years ago, you know, the concept that we're emitting lights, not a new one, you know, that this is go, which is work. This is for itself, but pop. This is May when how, you know, we're going back to the 1940s and, and, and forward from there. But yes, that.
All living cells emit light. It's just very, very weak. So you can't see it with the naked eye, but there are machines called bio photo multipliers that I've actually seen. I actually went to Fritz Albert's popped in Germany's lab when he was doing the research. And if you put like a cucumber seedling, or, you know, if you put a person in there, you can see the light being emitted. So yes, you're right. And I think probably Dr. Ann Lieber, one of the most prominent researchers on photobiomodulation has published a paper on biophotons recently. And a lot of the researchers are talking [Page//00:36:00] about it, Dr. Liu Lim, who has the V Light product. So, yes, we are emitting light. And probably, you know, that's a communication that we're maybe missing.
You know, you and I were kind of talking Zoom, but we met directly in person and probably had that kind of exchange of biophotons.
Julie Michelson: Sure. Well, and you.
You mentioned, you know, electricity and energy, and, and so we know we're sensitive to each other's fields, and so, you know, I'm sure light is a piece of that. I mean, you think of, I think, I don't, and this is totally just my own, not scientific. I just wonder if there is a need to. A correlation if we'll discover down the road, maybe not in my lifetime.
But, you know, kind of the, the amount of light we're emitting, how it correlates to health or or wellness or just energy in general, you know, some people. [Page//00:37:00] I mean, you know, you, we may not see the actual light, but we're definitely picking up on, we talk about some people being sunshine and some, you know, and some people are, have what I would call dark energy.
And I wonder if light is a piece of what we're receiving and we're just not aware.
Sarah Turner: Oh, for sure. I think for sure. And we already know that that cells in different stages will emit different kinds of light and a different degree of light, you know, cells that are dying, perhaps are putting out a lot more. UV light, you know, we can kind of measure certain things. But, you know, because you need these highly sensitive machines,
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Sarah Turner: doing the research.
But I think you're totally right. We will find out, you know, these kind of nuances
Julie Michelson: is the woo woo part that the science will come explain eventually, to me, that's how it all kind of connects. Right. Yes.
Sarah Turner: right. It's woo woo until they start measuring it. And then all of a sudden it's science, but there are people, [Page//00:38:00] you know, in academic, you know, I know there's a guy at Zurich university, you know, who's, who's an expert in biophotonic emission in bacteria. So, you know, once that information starts to filter down, you know, then it will become interesting and we'll, we'll start to get more and more advanced technology in there.
I'm sure we will definitely find a link between light emission in cells and health.
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Sarah Turner: And then from there, potentially, you know, because we already know that we emit an electromagnetic field and perhaps that's what you feel, you know, someone comes in the room and you get the correct
Julie Michelson: Oh yeah.
Sarah Turner: the room and you think, Oh, that's a good person.
You know, that's probably a mixture of all different nonverbal signals, including potentially light including electromagnetic fields.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I never, you know, I've thought about the electromagnetic and I've never thought about the light, but it, it does make sense. It so that's a, another fun part to watch, but for now to me, this [Page//00:39:00] leap in again, resources that we have that we can use without going to a doctor's office.
I live with a doctor. I love doctors. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm just saying anything we can do for ourselves to support, you know, and, and something like light that, that has so many different uses to me is just exciting. It really is.
Sarah Turner: I think, yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head, really, we need to kind of move forward with a bit of sovereignty of ourselves and wellness, because we're the ones, we're the experts on ourselves, you know, and we have our bodies to experiment on you, you know, you can kind of get a feeling of if something's right for you or not, or if you're on the wrong path, or if you're feeling good or feeling bad.
But also I think as society gets bigger and bigger, the health systems in most countries are straining at the seams a little bit. You know, we do need to take that responsibility and do as much as we can. And, [Page//00:40:00] and, and why not, you know, why, you know, the tools are available now, you know, we have, you know, it was probably like, I don't know, like fairly recently that we've been able to actually buy these devices and have them ourselves think about lasers.
When they came out, they were like. Hundreds of thousands of pounds and you could only have them in a hospital. Now we can have these devices in our own homes and they're much more powerful. So why wouldn't we kind of learn about these ways of taking care of ourselves
Julie Michelson: Yeah. No, it's I, I think in a being in functional medicine, it's again, the science lags behind when you're, we're talking about scientific method, but we know anecdotally when the things that we're doing are working for people, right? People get better. I use light therapy. I broke my shoulder five years ago.
And the Doctor said, which was just rude, you know, oh, at your age it's gonna take, it's, it's going [Page//00:41:00] to take a long time for this to, to heal. And I blew him away, you know, and, and I didn't, I a, I didn't take the things he told me to take. 'cause those are things I'm not taking and you, he just could not, could not believe how fast in my fifties, my, my bone healed.
And I'm like, well, I have tools that you don't use. It's that simple, right? Like, really? Yeah.
Sarah Turner: you know, I totally, yeah, I totally applaud that because, you know, every time that you're taking a pharmaceutical intervention, for example, there's a price to pay down the road. And I'm not, I'm not a big pharma bashing. I mean, how can I, you know, I worked there for a long time.
Julie Michelson: Well, no, and there's a time and a place.
Sarah Turner: place.
Yeah, there is a place and you do have to kind of do a risk assessment every time you do something, you know, because you have to pay for taking, you know, that's why we do have such an opiate problem around the world because, you know, you're kind of kicking the problem down the road a lot of the time.
And a lot of these more alternative therapies, like you say, [Page//00:42:00] using nutrition, using light, you know, kind of using outdoors even. You're strengthening the body rather than weakening it. So you have to weigh it up because these things, you know, you have, okay, you're not going to get an instant effect, but potentially you're strengthening your body further down the line versus potentially instant relief, but you're then paying for it later.
So I think for every, everybody, make the choice, but make good choices for yourself because, you know, we're in these bodies
Julie Michelson: Hopefully long, a long time and, and brains, right? And again, it goes back to how do you want to feel as, as you age? Is there any, cause you, you know, thinking of pharmaceuticals and listeners know my story. I mean, I was on 10 prescriptions at my sickest because I needed most of them for the side effects of the other prescribers.
So there's that downside you were talking about. Yeah. But is there, are there contraindications for, I won't say red light in [Page//00:43:00] general, for, for the Serothrive? Is there anybody who shouldn't use it or any?
Sarah Turner: a good question. It's a good question. And there are kind of standard contraindications that people say, because I think, like I say that there is a lot of research, but maybe people want to err on the side of caution. So, so there's a contraindication for active cancer, for an example, because they don't know, you know, because red light therapy makes cells grow.
So potentially there could be some kind of issue there. Actually, there is a lot of data coming out now that doesn't support that. And it actually supports the body's returning again to homeostasis. But I think. For safety's sake, and because, you know, maybe the data isn't conclusive, that would be a contraindication.
But mostly there are no known side effects with this, and like I say, there is a lot of data out there, and really no side effects. I would say one thing, that it does seem to be what they call a biphasic dose response, [Page//00:44:00] in that you can overdo it.
Julie Michelson: Okay.
Sarah Turner: that it's going to make you ill, but you could potentially negate the effect, the good
Julie Michelson: Okay. I love that idea because so many people have that mentality of, you know, if good is good then more is better. So I'm really glad you brought that up.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, and I think you need to hit a sweet spot and I think that's different for everybody. It depends what kind of state your mitochondria in, you know, if your mitochondria pretty shot to bits, if you've been ill or if you're very elderly or if there's some reason why you've become depleted, you maybe need less light, you know, you can maybe deal with less light.
And so for most people, I would say, you know, gauge yourself well, you know, don't go and overdo
Julie Michelson: Don't wear it all the time because you can.
Sarah Turner: So wear it all the time just because you can and don't think more is better because actually, you know, a lot of the studies have shown that really the body responds to very low dose light.[Page//00:45:00]
And I think what happens is if you use the light too much, or if you shine, you know, red light into the gut too much, your cells do start speeding up, but they start to produce waste products. And if you create too many waste products that your kind of lymph can deal with, or that your waste removal systems can deal with.
Then potentially, you know, you're not getting those beneficial effects. So the Sarah thrive system in particular is just 10 minutes and it's like three to five times a week. And, and
Julie Michelson: it's not even daily.
Sarah Turner: no, it's not even daily because I also think, you know, maybe the body does, the body needs to.
Julie Michelson: Regenerate or do its thing in between. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: Because every time you, it's almost like exercise, you know, you don't want to do it all the time because the body needs to cover in between. But every time you do it, you kind of strengthen a little bit further than the time before, because you're shining like the body receives the light and, oh, I need to make more light receivers.
So it will do that, you know, if you give it time and then the next time you can tolerate a little bit more light and then the next time and the next time. [Page//00:46:00] So I see it very much like exercise. You know, you want to strengthen the body slowly. And so let the body kind of adapt to the light and not just use it, you know, a hundred percent straight away.
And I think that's borne out in the research. You know, a lot of the data tends to show that there is a middle ground, you know, two little lights, not really going to do much, just about the right amount. It's going to have a great effect. If you overdo it, the effect starts to drop off again. It's just, we can't say numbers, which of course is what everybody wants.
Julie Michelson: But we're all different. So how do you, how do you do that? You can't standardize. And, and I, yeah. And that's where we need to give a little grace and that anecdotal stuff comes into play, right? Like I know my body and I know what feels good. It it, and I love that analogy to exercise because I, I meet so many people, especially that have felt a decline with autoimmunity that are, you know, they will not give up their exercise.
[Page//00:47:00] Because that's where, you know, they've drawn that line in the sand and they're hurt there. It's not serving them because they're over exercising for where their body is right now. And so I love that, that, and we know, and, and if you ask how they feel after they exercise, they'll tell you terrible. I'm like, well, that's information.
And, and, you know, so there's no standard for, for a lot of these things.
Sarah Turner: Know, no, and that's actually a hard lesson. Actually, I found that hard myself because I definitely was one of those people that was maybe doing too much because you hot yoga one night, then I would do a Kung Fu class. Then I'd be doing, because you kind of have a mindset of, you know, you don't want to let your fitness drop off.
Actually, you know, integrating some recovery days is, Oh, what a revelation is very beneficial, you know?
Julie Michelson: No, but it, it's, it was an important thing to bring up and so I'm glad you brought it up with the light too. And then how do you, then you get that where you can actually [Page//00:48:00] feel the benefit of the exercise when you have that rest in between.
Sarah Turner: right. Yeah, and body actually gets that chance to recover and repair, which, you know, is a vital piece, you know, you know, they tell you all the time in yoga, the laying down, you know, this kind of,
Julie Michelson: Shavasana is my favorite pose.
Sarah Turner: It took me a while to get it and now I think, yeah, you can apply that to a lot of these different therapies. You know, even with some of the nutrition, you know, you don't want to kind of do the same supplements over and over again, maybe cycle things through because the body, again, it's that whole flexibility thing.
It likes to be able to rest and recover, grow a little bit more, you know, it's a cyclical thing. So yeah, I think to, to kind of come back on your thing about contraindications, that that's really. As about as much of a side effect or a contraindication that there is. So, I mean, certain things like epilepsy potentially could be a contraindication.
Julie Michelson: about that. I was curious. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: Again, there's a lot of studies to show that it, [Page//00:49:00] that photobiomodulation is actually effective for epilepsy. So I think it is a case of doing the research and working out what works for you. I mean, certainly it's not going into the eyes. So all of
Julie Michelson: Right. Right. It's not like wearing a mask with lights or, yeah. Yeah. And I think, and the cancer thing, I, I, I totally, I'm familiar with the concerns there. And, and I wouldn't, I won't be surprised when science comes out to say, no, you know, light is still okay. I, we have a, I have a medical grade laser and, and was using it on my dogs and I, and my horses and myself.
And I had, and then I had a dog diagnosed with cancer. And so I, I did stop using it on her because I don't know for sure. Right. And, and so
Sarah Turner: And with all of these things, you know, we're talking, I mean, I, I. I'm not qualified to talk about medical conditions
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Sarah Turner: With all of these things, check it out [Page//00:50:00] with a medical professional. And if you've got someone who knows about these things. But I think more and more medical specialists will start to look at this.
And you'll be able to see a specialist oncologist or whatever the condition is who will be able to kind of guide people through the process. But right now we're not really there. So it's really. And people to take their own responsibility to do their own due diligence. And if in doubt, check it out with a qualified doctor and then you know that you're kind of doing the best thing for you.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. So I always ask at the end of the podcast, For one step that listeners can take today, and it can be anything so it could be something we've covered or not to start to improve their health.
Sarah Turner: Well, I would kind of encourage everybody to take a bit of an inventory. Of their light exposure over the day, and maybe do it for a week, just do a little inventory and see what was the [Page//00:51:00] first light that you saw in the morning. Was it natural light? Was it artificial light? And what about through your day?
Were you mainly in natural light? Did you go outside? And if you were in artificial light, was it kind of, And in a fluorescent office or kind of did you manage to get yourself next to a window. And just to gain a bit more awareness about your light environment because we're talking a lot about these devices but actually a lot of these devices are mimicking sunlight, you know, and, and so a lot of the effect comes from giving your body like that it can deal with and it can manage you know if you are exposed to too much blue light and it's ironic we're kind of talking on this technology.
Julie Michelson: my blockers on.
Sarah Turner: Yeah. It's daytime here so I'm kind of data, but certainly in the evening, yeah, put your blue blockers on, you know, check all the screens. But I think first of all, you need to kind of see what you're dealing with, because I think for a lot of people, it's like the Fuji that you don't realize until you start to really notice it.
Julie Michelson: pay attention.
Sarah Turner: Something [Page//00:52:00] very simple, like only seeing artificial light first thing in the morning could, could really be a game changer for some. Some people, you know, if you're someone, if you're that person, who's looking at the news before you've even got out of bed, try a week where you don't do that. And you maybe stick your head out the window or even better go and stand on your grass for 10 minutes, do some Tai Chi or something. I think I would, my first challenge would be just take an inventory. What, what light you've been exposed to and how do you, did you feel in each situation? You know, if you're in this fluorescent office, did you feel as good as if you were walking outside?
Julie Michelson: Never, not for me.
Sarah Turner: About
Julie Michelson: But I think that's, it's brilliant because we can't improve upon or make change with when we don't have the awareness. It's always the first step. So absolutely brilliant. Sarah, thank you so much. You have given us a lot to think about and to do today.
Sarah Turner: yeah, it's my pleasure and it was so nice to see you again after seeing you. Yeah, it was [Page//00:53:00] great.
Julie Michelson: Good to see you as well. For everyone listening, remember you can get the transcripts and show notes by visiting inspiredliving. show. I hope you had a great time and enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week. [Page//00:54:00]
And in today's conversation, we discuss [Page//00:01:00] photobiomodulation and specifically how to use light therapy to support health by addressing the gut and the brain together.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Sarah Turner: Thank you. It's lovely to be here.
Julie Michelson: I'm so excited to just pick your brain today. And since we're going to be talking about brains, this'll, this'll be good, but I always love to hear personal story. You know, how did you get to, how did you decide I'm going to create this amazing product that focuses on the gut brain connection?
Sarah Turner: Sure. Well, my trajectory is kind of through maybe a lot of conventional medicine, and then to alternative, and now I've kind of settled on light therapy as a good middle ground. But I started off in pharmaceutical research, actually.
Julie Michelson: Oh, wow.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, so when I, during studying at university and [Page//00:02:00] then after I left, I was at various drug companies, Merck, Sharp and Dome, Glaxo.
I spent a fair amount of time in inhaled product research, so looking at asthma devices. And I did kind of come across the limitations of that kind of therapy in, in a way, you know, it became obvious, you know, that the drugs are good for certain things, but for these long term conditions, there are a lot of limitations there.
And so I switched to do nutritional medicine and I did that for a while and I set up a little health food shop and I had a nutrition consultancy. But again, there were even limitations there that I found. So I then went on to look at neuroscience and I studied clinical neuroscience in London. And after which time I went to California and got involved in the whole biohacking movement that was going on over there.
Julie Michelson: Which is how we met.
Sarah Turner: Exactly, at the Dave Asprey Biohackers Summit, and actually that was one of the places where I first started getting to really understand this concept of [Page//00:03:00] introducing biophysics into biology and health, into a health setting. And so I was working actually in Santa Cruz, California on a consciousness interface device, which is a fairly out there fringe science way of looking at information fields.
Julie Michelson: Wow. That's a, that's a long way away from pharmaceutical research,
Sarah Turner: it certainly is. Yeah. It's the two extremes really, because in pharmaceutical research, you really are kind of just following a program. You're, you've got very specific rules that you're following. You know, you have to follow good laboratory practice and it's. you know, you're quite confined. And then, you know, in this very alternative fringe science, you know, people are much more, you know, you're chucking all of that out and you're having to think about the body and science in a very different way.
So I feel like I did the two extremes. And then after doing that for a while, I kind of wanted to come back to something, which was a little bit more [Page//00:04:00] measurable, because although the alternative side is very interesting because we don't. can't yet measure it, or perhaps, you know, there's certain things that are not quite right there.
It's very difficult to really get your teeth into it and, and, say something with kind of any certainty, you know, there's a lot of, Oh, it could be this, you know, and, and a lot of people are open to that and that's great. And a lot of people are helped by that. But for me personally, I wanted to do something that was much more measurable, scientific, at least in the sense that you can.
document these effects and present them to people and, and, you know, speak to the scientific community as well as to the alternative health community. So that's why I really, I am now focused solely on photobiomodulation, which is just this long word for light therapy, because although the light therapy, of course, it is a little bit esoteric because nobody even really knows what light is, you know, so.
There has to be, there has to be, you know, some kind of [Page//00:05:00] intuitive, open minded way of looking at it. But for, at the same time, there is a lot of very credible, validated research, you know, there's, you know, 5, 000 peer reviewed studies on light therapy for a health application. So that's kind of where I've settled now.
I think I've found this ideal middle ground.
Julie Michelson: I love it because I, it really is. I always find it fascinating that the, what I are really foundational. Basics for humankind is now cutting edge science and wellness care. And so, and I, I think, you know, you say light therapy. I love the word photobiomodulation because It, it is, it's about changing our biology with light.
And so it's not just, you know, and there are so many different kinds of light and, and ways to use light to support health. How did you kind of narrow down [Page//00:06:00] into this gut brain connected area?
Sarah Turner: Yeah. Well, as I said to you, I did, I have a master's in neuroscience, so I was already sort of fixated on the brain. And then in doing a lot of this biohacking, I made a biohacking movie or at least co produced it with a friend of mine. I started to really understand this whole connected body piece. And, you know, if you want to have a good brain, you know, you can't, you can't isolate the brain from the rest of the body.
That's just not how things work. And so I got more and more interested in a kind of systemic approach to biology. And then this is especially important, actually, in photobiomodulation, because you're talking about getting light to the organ. You know, you're talking about actually irradiating a body part with light.
And when you think of the brain, It's not the most accessible organ in the body. You know, there are a lot of barriers, hair's a barrier, you know, bone is a barrier. It's kind of awkward to have this thing, you know, [Page//00:07:00] shining light onto the head, you know, the head is round, you know, you have to have something that contours to the, to the head to get, to actually get a chance even of getting.
a very small percentage of light to the brain. So that's why I started thinking one, there is a systemic, you know, there's a systemic part of it in that everything in the body is connected. And then there's also a very practical part of it in that it's difficult to get light to the brain. So if you really want to have the maximum chance of getting a good dose of light to the body, generally.
I think it's, you know, it makes sense to access something like the gut where you can deliver a lot of the light. And, you know, the effects of that are going to, you know, are going to get to the brain that all the blood that's in the gut is going to get to the brain. The microbiome that's in the gut talks to the brain, the vagus nerve talks to the brain.
So from my point of view, the whole gut brain connection is. is important in all chronic illness, but very specifically important in photobiomodulation when you're talking about getting light to the brain, [Page//00:08:00] you know, which isn't the easy, the easiest of jobs.
Julie Michelson: I love that. And I, I really love the newer, seemingly newer knowledge that, you know, that this two directional, we used to think, Oh, the brain is just in charge of the body and sending all the signals. And now we know, Oh, actually. There is, it's a two way street and, and a lot of stuff starts in the gut. And, you know, we've covered on the podcast many times before the importance of gut health and autoimmunity and, and immunity in general.
And so I, I love this. It just makes sense now that you've put it out there. If we want to get to the brain, you know, including the gut in that equation is essential.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, you're right. And from a point of view of immunity, you know, a lot of the immune responses in the brain, you know, do start in the gut. A lot of [Page//00:09:00] neurotransmitters start in the gut, like the endocannabinoid system. You know, we know that that is a link between brain immunity and the body generally, and our body is covered in these kind of receptors.
And all of these receptors, all of these systems seem to respond in some way to light therapy. You know, even, you know, the whole concept of. inflammation, you know, we now know a lot of brain conditions are caused by chronic inflammation. You know, if you reduce,
Julie Michelson: of them
Sarah Turner: most of them, if you, if you can kind of reduce the inflammation in the body, generally, you know, you've got a much better chance of dealing with.
issues that you have with the brain. So I think it is really super linked to the immune system, actually what's going on. And I think the gut is playing such a huge part in, in the immunity of the brain and you're right, you know, we kind of intuitively know this. And a lot of people who are into alternative medicine have been kind of banging this drum for a long time, but now in [Page//00:10:00] mainstream media, you know, if you go on LinkedIn, there's always a post there about a new disease that's been linked to the gut brain connection.
You know, we know about Parkinson's now there's an autistic spectrum disorder, addictive personality disorder. Every time people are starting to say, okay, Alzheimer's, yeah, all the kinds of neurodegeneration there does to be this link between the immune system, the gut and the brain.
Julie Michelson: which is, I just love this approach of, okay, if we're really focused on brain, you know, it's the inverse almost to, to most of the conversations out there. And knowing I'm Certified to recode Alzheimer's and dementia coach and knowing how essential, you know, the gut health is to improving brain function.
I love, I love that you're doing this. I want to talk a little bit. Because as you said, light therapy has become, [Page//00:11:00] you know, there, there's so many different ways. And what you're doing is really unique and, and cutting edge. And I'm sure there will be a lot of, a lot of companies following suit, but how do people know?
The different, I mean, there's so many different kinds of light, like, tell me a little bit more about how the audience can become educated as to what to look for in light devices. And maybe, you know, certain, certain lights going for certain things.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, you're right. There are a lot of products on the market, and I think it very much depends on what your health goal is on which of these products that you go for. Because, you know, if you've got like a bashed knee from an injury, you know, you'd probably want a different devices if you, if you've got some kind of predementia.
So I think the most important thing is to kind of decide, okay, what is the main purpose for the device. And then try and [Page//00:12:00] find devices, which have some degree of flexibility, because I think one of the main things that I found out about, you know, like therapy is of course, like travels in a straight line.
We know that, but this is very important for looking at the body and treating all different things on the body because the body's not flat, you know, so the panels are if you're a biohacker and you want to keep your body in a very good condition, but there may be not so good if you're looking to really get to a specific area.
You know, if you want to get like deep into a knee joint, or if you actually want to kind of get deep into the gut or very, especially if you want to get into the brain, you really need to have a device that contours to the body, you know, that's round. And so it would deliver light in the way that aids maximum penetration, because you've got to bear in mind, you've got these.
straight lines of light coming in. And then the other thing is also, you want to look at the color of light or the wavelength, because the longer the wavelength of light generally as a rule, the deeper it will travel into the [Page//00:13:00] body. So you'll see a lot of the devices on the market have a red light, which is usually in the range of like six, 600 to 650 nanometers.
And then a near infrared light, which is usually about 850, 810, 850 nanometers. And the reason why they have those two colors is because red light will only penetrate superficially. So, you know, if you're treating skin disorders or wounds or something, red light is great. But if you do want to get into that joint or onto the surface of the brain or into the gut, you do need a longer wavelength of light.
So you need something that's above 850 nanometers for that.
Julie Michelson: Okay. And, and that's, I think, essential for people to understand. And like you said, it goes back to what is your intention? What's your goal? And for me, I mean, and again, I'd like, if we could all do all of it,
Sarah Turner: Yes.
Julie Michelson: that would be ideal, but I can't think of any way in which it wouldn't make sense to prioritize brain [Page//00:14:00] health, whether you're a biohacker and you want to be up leveling and protecting from decline, or, you know, like we all, our brain health is essential to our quality of life, no matter what else is going on.
Sarah Turner: Yes. Well, yeah, that, that's been my take from the beginning. You know, if you've got a good brain and you are functioning well, you know, you can deal with, with most other things that are coming up. You know, even pain, you know, if your brain is working, if you've got enough sleep, you know, if you, if you are taking care of how you're doing mentally, you know, all of these things that the challenges become.
You can deal with them better. So I think, yeah, prioritizing the brain. And the way to do that is, you know, treat the gut, prioritize the brain. And then a lot of these other health conditions kind of come into focus a little bit more. And you're right, the preventative side, you know, we are, unfortunately, you know, we're coming, you know, we have a generation of people which are facing a lot of dementia because, you [Page//00:15:00] know, The rates are on the rise for all, all many different reasons.
So yeah, kind of maintaining good health as you age also, you know, by, by treating your brain first and foremost. Yeah. Yeah. For me, that seems to be, you know, where I always start is with brain health.
Julie Michelson: And, and have you found at all you know, if, cause I'm thinking, okay, you're treating gut and brain. And so people with gut issues, I would imagine that the panel on the belly is a great idea.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, it is. And, and I actually myself, I had a little bit of IBS. Maybe you call it IBD in the States, but you know, irritable bowel.
Julie Michelson: Both. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: And I have found that that has drastically diminished to the, to the point where I don't notice that anymore and, and I, and, but of course it's like, you can't say, Oh, the [Page//00:16:00] IBS has gone back, you know, and how does that affect the brain?
Because of course it, you know, we, we've spoke about, you know, you have this two way thing. Once you're fixing that issue, you're fixing the brain, you know, the fogginess goes, you know, all of that, the kind of anxiety piece goes. So yeah, I think this, this whole thing about gut brain. You know, I'm sure that this is going to be something that's treated routinely in the future for all of these different things, you know,
Julie Michelson: Gosh. I hope so.
Sarah Turner: it'd be
Julie Michelson: that's why we're having these conversations, right?
Sarah Turner: exactly right. Because it's like Parkinson's, as you've mentioned, you know that often the gut symptoms come a long time before the brain symptoms, you know,
Julie Michelson: Sure. And I, I love that you just specifically mentioned anxiety because anxiety and depression are things that people tend to, you neurotransmitter or something going on, but that step to gut.
Sarah Turner: yes.
Julie Michelson: sometimes a bigger leap for people. And I, I just had [Page//00:17:00] a conversation yesterday with somebody was sharing a story about a past client who didn't come to me for anxiety, but really struggled.
She was a high functioning, anxious person. And through what we, you know, just diet change and gut health support that we were doing for her other issues. All of a sudden her anxiety was gone and, and this was a very targeted, simple, it was gluten, you know, when she put it back in and, and that's not uncommon.
I see it a lot. And so it makes, I just want to kind of drive home, you know, we're talking about, I love focusing on dementia and brain health and longevity, but also, you know, the mood disorders really, really are driven by gut health or can
Sarah Turner: right.
Julie Michelson: Right.
Sarah Turner: And it's so interesting now, all of the discoveries they're making with the microbiome, you know, because when you [Page//00:18:00] think about the human body, you know, we kind of take ownership of this body, but actually, we're a lot less human cells than we are bacterial cells. You know, we're kind of
Julie Michelson: we're
Sarah Turner: A collage of all these different organisms that all have their different needs and wants.
So, you know, if you have a lot of these kind of detrimental bacteria in your gut, of course they're putting out their own chemicals, you know, they're doing their own thing. And now they've kind of seen that. A lot of people who have a lot of anxiety disorders, depression, those kinds of things, they a lot of dysbiosis.
There's a lot of this. Potentially not so beneficial bacteria and they're putting out compounds that are getting to your brain, you know, and then that's could be the cause of some of the depression. So some of this isn't really, you know, maybe not even coming from you as in you, the human, you know, it's coming from your bacterial compadres that are in there doing their own thing.
So tackling that, you know, really getting to grips with your gut bacteria. Doing all of [Page//00:19:00] those things, of course, that could have a huge effect on all of these different kinds of. Moods, even, you know, something as simple as being able to sleep. I saw a really interesting paper the other day about addictive personality disorder.
You know, a lot of people's addictions, you know, the cravings can be coming from, you know, what the bacteria wants, you know.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. I, we, I deal with that a lot with any kind of yeast or Candida overgrowth driving sugar cravings just, and we all know sugar is really addictive. We also know it's inflammatory but I try to get people to shift and think, okay, you know, as you're having that, like, that's not you, you're not the one screaming to be fed.
It's. These, these other organisms and yeah, and so it is, I mean, we, we just don't even realize that we are not always in charge
Sarah Turner: yes. And I think that's quite liberating because the okay I, you [Page//00:20:00] know, I can do something about this, because you know if it's as simple as you know focus on your gut bacteria really try to, like you say, it's difficult to remove the sugar because you've got these creatures that are crying for the sugar,
Julie Michelson: because they're going to die if you don't feed them sugar, which you want.
Sarah Turner: what they've all got their agenda. So yeah, but it enables you to do things, you know, like therapy has been shown to change the microbiome, dietary change has been shown, simple things like circadian biology, you know, timing your body more with the body's natural rhythms, you know, enables those beneficial bacteria to grow because, you know, they have their optimal environments too.
Julie Michelson: And I would assume I'm not, this is not scientific, but it just, in the way my brain works, I think of, you know, the red light or the light on the gut. Nurturing the good bacteria, those things that, that we want. I always, I just think of it as a positive thing. I don't know the mechanism of action, but I,
Sarah Turner: Well, you know, I
Julie Michelson: increase [Page//00:21:00] the good, there's less room for the bad.
Sarah Turner: and, and I think actually at the moment, because the science is so new, you know, we don't entirely know how it's working. I mean, there's a whole field now called photo bios, which is the study of light on bacteria. And certainly in an animal model, there does seem to be a direct correlation If you shine light onto a a rodent, for example.
And then do stall analysis, you can see very directly a correlation between shining light onto the gut and a change in the microbe composition and that probably is you are actually shining light on the bacteria directly because remember bacteria and mitochondria, you know, probably have a similar. Evolutionary history and, and the mitochondria is, is really the main light receiver in the body.
In, in humans, I don't know if we are so sure about that because, you know, humans come in different shapes and sizes and yet light seems to have an effect on the microbiome regardless of, you know, how much light you're getting into the actual gut area. But I think you're right. I think what's really [Page//00:22:00] going on is you're Allowing the body to return to a homeostasis where you have the right conditions in the gut, you know, you have oxygenated blood going to the gut, you have a decrease in inflammatory chemicals in the gut.
Then that enables, you know, you create a good environment for the good bacteria to proliferate. So I think it, it could be that you're shining light directly into the bacteria, but I think maybe more likely at this stage with the, with the light panels and the light pads, is that you are, enabling the correct environment for those good bacteria to grow.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Which is, is, it is the same as diet change and I wouldn't do one or the other. I would do both, but that's just, that's just my approach. You know, support in, in every way, shape or, or form. Let's talk a little bit more specifically about the Sarah Thrive. Like, let's, because it is different than any I've seen.
I've been in the [Page//00:23:00] biohacking world since 2016. I've seen a lot of. Like you said, you know, the light panels are popular. I've seen like, you know, you name it. I've seen a lot of different kind of lights. And so let's talk a little specific and you mentioned some of the things already. But for people who haven't seen a prototype, or, you know, don't don't know exactly what it what it looks like and what it's doing.
Let's talk about that.
Sarah Turner: Yes, sure. Thank you. Yeah. So, so the serothrive device, it's a system. So it's two devices actually. So, you know, we've, we've kind of spoken exactly why you'd want to have a gut brain, a gut, a clear brain and one for your gut. So it's, it has a panel, actually a flat panel with the two wavelengths I've mentioned.
So it has the 630 and 850 light that goes directly over the abdomen. And then at the same time there is a headband and the headband fits very flush to the forehead where you don't have the hair so you have one less [Page//00:24:00] barrier to get through. It does have one little unit that goes on the back that you can kind of just hopefully poke a little bit under the hairline there.
And these are clusters and in these clusters there is actually four wavelengths, because In the brain I think probably water is one of the chromophores that's going to be important. So after about 940 nanometers, water starts to absorb light. So in the brain band, there's the red light to get the blood around the head.
And then there's also the 850 to penetrate through the skull and then 940 and 1070. So there's four different wavelengths of light. So you're getting to that surface of the brain at the same time as the gut. And then another thing that we can do with the, with the light going to the brain, which is very interesting is we can pulse that light at certain frequencies, because we know that the brain is oscillating at certain frequencies.
We have certain brain waves that are predominant at certain times, depending what we're doing, you know, whether we're alert and focused, [Page//00:25:00] whether we're asleep, whether we're kind of daydreaming, our brain is oscillating at different frequencies. And by providing the light in these different frequencies, you can, you can have an effect on the brain state there.
And this is interesting for those conditions we spoke about for things like anxiety, depression, dementia, where people maybe get stuck in a certain brain state. So that's very, that's a very interesting, like additional function or feature of this device is that we can change. Not only can we change the wavelength of the light, we can also change the, the rate of oscillation, the Hertz oscillation.
So there are six different programs in the Sera system for six different brain wellness applications.
Julie Michelson: And I, and just because I've seen the device, you mentioned the, the flat pad and it is a pad. So we talked, we touched on earlier that you want something that's going to form to you. And so [Page//00:26:00] I was able to see all different sizes and shapes. Easily use their thrive at the conference. We were both at and so I think that I just wanted to loop back to that where the difference of just having a panel in front of you.
You have this pad that is directly on
Sarah Turner: it on. Yeah, you can strap it, you can kind of attach it with Velcro and you can put the headband on. And that was one of the other criteria that I wanted because if you said, you know, we're trying to do all the things all the time. But I think one of the barriers is if you have to actually kind of sit by an electrical output, you know, do, you know, I know for me, you know, I'm rushing around all the time, sometimes carving out that time after you've done all your morning routine and everything else that the biohackers are meant to do.
It's just another barrier to the therapy. So this has a rechargeable battery, a shielded rechargeable battery. So that, so that you can stack your hacks.
Julie Michelson: And you just mentioned a really good point that I want to [Page//00:27:00] hit on because I am, I'm that person who always goes to the, but what about the EMFs? And what about the Bluetooth? And what about the, so let, let's touch on that. You mentioned the battery is shielded cause that, you know, you have a device on your head.
You want to make sure you're not doing damage while you're trying to do something good.
Sarah Turner: Yeah. You don't want to do more harm than good. You're right. And so one of the criteria for designing this device was that the battery had to be totally shielded. And I have one of those cornet meters. That I actually gave to the engineer and said, it has to always be on the green reading of this.
And so, you know, they're kind of looking at me as if I'm nuts, but they kind of type in the spec. And we had that down as one of the criteria and then with the app, it is app controlled. So there is a Bluetooth that's giving the command of whatever. selection you might have for the pulsing, but then on top of the device, there is a disable switch.
So as soon as you've selected your program, you disable the Bluetooth [Page//00:28:00] onto the headband, and then there's no Bluetooth going in or out of that for the duration of the session. And for, and you know, people don't have to use the app if they don't want to use the app. If you just want to use it on,
Julie Michelson: program over and over. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: that program which was the continuous mode.
You don't even have to have the app. But, but like I say, I'm quite happy that with the Bluetooth disabled switch, you're not getting any of that kind of non native DMF that you don't want going in there.
Julie Michelson: And I think that's often overlooked by people, you know, there's lots of the, the, the more time marches on the more gadgets and devices and wonderful things that we, that we get to have but also if you can't turn that Bluetooth off, you know, the, the trackers, it just drives me crazy, the, you know, I have one that I've had for a long time because I can, I can put it on airplane mode and it's still doing its thing.
But it's not, it's not doing anything to me. It's just here for me. And so that was actually [Page//00:29:00] one of my most favorite parts of your, of your device is like, wow, she really, you can tell it's biohacker created. Because these are the details, you know, it's, it's like having to me like hydrogen water in plastic, like no, no, I don't want the plastic, figure it out another way.
So I, I love that you really, I think have covered all angles and I believe I overheard you saying you guys will continue to add programs through time, right? It has, it has yeah,
Sarah Turner: At the moment we have six programs and they're ones that have been worked out for a kind of basic functions like focus, energize, meditation. There's a balanced one in there, but I've been working with some scientists actually who are more on the physics side that are looking at creating apps to maybe activate certain neurotransmitters or things like that.
[Page//00:30:00] Now at the moment it's a little bit untested. So you know that's. Process that we're going through, but I'm hoping if we can get some good results with, with different kinds of frequency programs, we can introduce those as we get them developed. And so the, the headband has been designed so that you can update, you can update the apps that you want to use just through the.
The app on the phone. So yeah, as new developments come up and people say, okay, well, we think that this way, you know, this frequency pulsing, you know, maybe even a program, you know, I know people who are very granular in how they're, how they're working out these pulsing, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a straight line.
Right. Hertz, like on and off. And in fact, even in this device, we don't just deliver, for example, if we're doing 10 Hertz, it's not just 10 times a second. It's in a variable. It's kind of 10 times a second average, but variable because the body's very variable. You know, we know that the body likes [Page//00:31:00] variation because within variation there's flexibility and that's why heart rates not consistent.
You know, that's why brain waves are not consistent because the body has a built in flexibility there. So I'm hoping.
Julie Michelson: like flexibility equals resilience is kind of how I look at, I know, which, so I think that's brilliant that it's not just, you know, a set specific, you know, equally spaced kind of a pattern. Cause then I feel like you just get into another loop. It's just a different loop at that point.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, and it's not how the body works. It's not how the body processes information, the body, you know, it has information that, well, it seems random, but it has a pattern and it has a pattern for the reason, like you say, it's resilience, it's flexibility, you know, if you're sitting still and the tiger would jump through this window.
Now I need my heart to pretty much speed up.
Julie Michelson: let's get online. Yeah
Sarah Turner: There needs to be that there needs to be that variation, you know, and if you're stuck in a [Page//00:32:00] repetitive, you know, it's harder to change. So, so definitely as we learn more about how to deliver light, we can update that. And I'd like to say I think this is something that it's, this is the piece that's taking off now because people know that like therapy works, but what is the best way to deliver light, what is the best way to pulse light, you know, Can you post different wavelengths to get different effects?
So I think that's now where a lot of the research is going. And, you know, I think we can be much more specific in the future about the application of, of the different kinds of light and the different pulsing schedules.
Julie Michelson: which is exciting. And as you said, this is where the research is going so that you know, there will be more and more information Scientific I do love you really are Dancing that, you know, definitely pure science, but cutting edge at the same time and, and pushing barriers. That's how we learn and, and [Page//00:33:00] make progress.
So I am excited about that. How, how do people find Sarah Thrive?
Sarah Turner: Thank you. Yeah. At the moment it's Sarah thrive. com. People can go to the website, Sarah thrive. com. And then I have. Most of the socials, I must admit I'm not, I'm not brilliant on the socials, but definitely LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook is there with Sarah Thrive or the Sarah system. But all of it can be accessed through the website, sarahthrive.
com is probably the easiest way for people to find out. And I'm just sarah at sarahthrive. com if people want to reach out to me directly.
Julie Michelson: Which they should. She's, you're, you're brilliant and you're fun and, and you make the science accessible. You know, I can sit here and understand what you're saying and I'm sure listeners are understanding as well. And it really is kind of food for thought. I, I have a question. [Page//00:34:00] Because you're the right person to answer it.
You know, we're talking about adding light, right? The body receiving light and specifically the brain. Does the brain, do we emit light at all?
Sarah Turner: Yeah, we do emit light. Yeah, we, we, we emit ultra weak photonic emissions, which is sometimes called biophotons. And yeah, we're, we're emitting biophotons all the time. And actually this is maybe one of the ways that light is working in the brain because when you stimulate the mitochondria, it's really the mitochondria that are producing these kind of ultra weak photonic emissions.
And so perhaps that's setting up a cascade and it's a different communication to neural communication, you know, we already know that things are going on in the brain far faster than the nervous system can account for, you know, there's something else going on and people have put forward all different theories, living matrix theory, maybe it's a piezoelectric [Page//00:35:00] effect going on there or so yeah, I think probably this.
The bio photons, which were actually were discovered many, many years ago, you know, the concept that we're emitting lights, not a new one, you know, that this is go, which is work. This is for itself, but pop. This is May when how, you know, we're going back to the 1940s and, and, and forward from there. But yes, that.
All living cells emit light. It's just very, very weak. So you can't see it with the naked eye, but there are machines called bio photo multipliers that I've actually seen. I actually went to Fritz Albert's popped in Germany's lab when he was doing the research. And if you put like a cucumber seedling, or, you know, if you put a person in there, you can see the light being emitted. So yes, you're right. And I think probably Dr. Ann Lieber, one of the most prominent researchers on photobiomodulation has published a paper on biophotons recently. And a lot of the researchers are talking [Page//00:36:00] about it, Dr. Liu Lim, who has the V Light product. So, yes, we are emitting light. And probably, you know, that's a communication that we're maybe missing.
You know, you and I were kind of talking Zoom, but we met directly in person and probably had that kind of exchange of biophotons.
Julie Michelson: Sure. Well, and you.
You mentioned, you know, electricity and energy, and, and so we know we're sensitive to each other's fields, and so, you know, I'm sure light is a piece of that. I mean, you think of, I think, I don't, and this is totally just my own, not scientific. I just wonder if there is a need to. A correlation if we'll discover down the road, maybe not in my lifetime.
But, you know, kind of the, the amount of light we're emitting, how it correlates to health or or wellness or just energy in general, you know, some people. [Page//00:37:00] I mean, you know, you, we may not see the actual light, but we're definitely picking up on, we talk about some people being sunshine and some, you know, and some people are, have what I would call dark energy.
And I wonder if light is a piece of what we're receiving and we're just not aware.
Sarah Turner: Oh, for sure. I think for sure. And we already know that that cells in different stages will emit different kinds of light and a different degree of light, you know, cells that are dying, perhaps are putting out a lot more. UV light, you know, we can kind of measure certain things. But, you know, because you need these highly sensitive machines,
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Sarah Turner: doing the research.
But I think you're totally right. We will find out, you know, these kind of nuances
Julie Michelson: is the woo woo part that the science will come explain eventually, to me, that's how it all kind of connects. Right. Yes.
Sarah Turner: right. It's woo woo until they start measuring it. And then all of a sudden it's science, but there are people, [Page//00:38:00] you know, in academic, you know, I know there's a guy at Zurich university, you know, who's, who's an expert in biophotonic emission in bacteria. So, you know, once that information starts to filter down, you know, then it will become interesting and we'll, we'll start to get more and more advanced technology in there.
I'm sure we will definitely find a link between light emission in cells and health.
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Sarah Turner: And then from there, potentially, you know, because we already know that we emit an electromagnetic field and perhaps that's what you feel, you know, someone comes in the room and you get the correct
Julie Michelson: Oh yeah.
Sarah Turner: the room and you think, Oh, that's a good person.
You know, that's probably a mixture of all different nonverbal signals, including potentially light including electromagnetic fields.
Julie Michelson: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I never, you know, I've thought about the electromagnetic and I've never thought about the light, but it, it does make sense. It so that's a, another fun part to watch, but for now to me, this [Page//00:39:00] leap in again, resources that we have that we can use without going to a doctor's office.
I live with a doctor. I love doctors. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm just saying anything we can do for ourselves to support, you know, and, and something like light that, that has so many different uses to me is just exciting. It really is.
Sarah Turner: I think, yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head, really, we need to kind of move forward with a bit of sovereignty of ourselves and wellness, because we're the ones, we're the experts on ourselves, you know, and we have our bodies to experiment on you, you know, you can kind of get a feeling of if something's right for you or not, or if you're on the wrong path, or if you're feeling good or feeling bad.
But also I think as society gets bigger and bigger, the health systems in most countries are straining at the seams a little bit. You know, we do need to take that responsibility and do as much as we can. And, [Page//00:40:00] and, and why not, you know, why, you know, the tools are available now, you know, we have, you know, it was probably like, I don't know, like fairly recently that we've been able to actually buy these devices and have them ourselves think about lasers.
When they came out, they were like. Hundreds of thousands of pounds and you could only have them in a hospital. Now we can have these devices in our own homes and they're much more powerful. So why wouldn't we kind of learn about these ways of taking care of ourselves
Julie Michelson: Yeah. No, it's I, I think in a being in functional medicine, it's again, the science lags behind when you're, we're talking about scientific method, but we know anecdotally when the things that we're doing are working for people, right? People get better. I use light therapy. I broke my shoulder five years ago.
And the Doctor said, which was just rude, you know, oh, at your age it's gonna take, it's, it's going [Page//00:41:00] to take a long time for this to, to heal. And I blew him away, you know, and, and I didn't, I a, I didn't take the things he told me to take. 'cause those are things I'm not taking and you, he just could not, could not believe how fast in my fifties, my, my bone healed.
And I'm like, well, I have tools that you don't use. It's that simple, right? Like, really? Yeah.
Sarah Turner: you know, I totally, yeah, I totally applaud that because, you know, every time that you're taking a pharmaceutical intervention, for example, there's a price to pay down the road. And I'm not, I'm not a big pharma bashing. I mean, how can I, you know, I worked there for a long time.
Julie Michelson: Well, no, and there's a time and a place.
Sarah Turner: place.
Yeah, there is a place and you do have to kind of do a risk assessment every time you do something, you know, because you have to pay for taking, you know, that's why we do have such an opiate problem around the world because, you know, you're kind of kicking the problem down the road a lot of the time.
And a lot of these more alternative therapies, like you say, [Page//00:42:00] using nutrition, using light, you know, kind of using outdoors even. You're strengthening the body rather than weakening it. So you have to weigh it up because these things, you know, you have, okay, you're not going to get an instant effect, but potentially you're strengthening your body further down the line versus potentially instant relief, but you're then paying for it later.
So I think for every, everybody, make the choice, but make good choices for yourself because, you know, we're in these bodies
Julie Michelson: Hopefully long, a long time and, and brains, right? And again, it goes back to how do you want to feel as, as you age? Is there any, cause you, you know, thinking of pharmaceuticals and listeners know my story. I mean, I was on 10 prescriptions at my sickest because I needed most of them for the side effects of the other prescribers.
So there's that downside you were talking about. Yeah. But is there, are there contraindications for, I won't say red light in [Page//00:43:00] general, for, for the Serothrive? Is there anybody who shouldn't use it or any?
Sarah Turner: a good question. It's a good question. And there are kind of standard contraindications that people say, because I think, like I say that there is a lot of research, but maybe people want to err on the side of caution. So, so there's a contraindication for active cancer, for an example, because they don't know, you know, because red light therapy makes cells grow.
So potentially there could be some kind of issue there. Actually, there is a lot of data coming out now that doesn't support that. And it actually supports the body's returning again to homeostasis. But I think. For safety's sake, and because, you know, maybe the data isn't conclusive, that would be a contraindication.
But mostly there are no known side effects with this, and like I say, there is a lot of data out there, and really no side effects. I would say one thing, that it does seem to be what they call a biphasic dose response, [Page//00:44:00] in that you can overdo it.
Julie Michelson: Okay.
Sarah Turner: that it's going to make you ill, but you could potentially negate the effect, the good
Julie Michelson: Okay. I love that idea because so many people have that mentality of, you know, if good is good then more is better. So I'm really glad you brought that up.
Sarah Turner: Yeah, and I think you need to hit a sweet spot and I think that's different for everybody. It depends what kind of state your mitochondria in, you know, if your mitochondria pretty shot to bits, if you've been ill or if you're very elderly or if there's some reason why you've become depleted, you maybe need less light, you know, you can maybe deal with less light.
And so for most people, I would say, you know, gauge yourself well, you know, don't go and overdo
Julie Michelson: Don't wear it all the time because you can.
Sarah Turner: So wear it all the time just because you can and don't think more is better because actually, you know, a lot of the studies have shown that really the body responds to very low dose light.[Page//00:45:00]
And I think what happens is if you use the light too much, or if you shine, you know, red light into the gut too much, your cells do start speeding up, but they start to produce waste products. And if you create too many waste products that your kind of lymph can deal with, or that your waste removal systems can deal with.
Then potentially, you know, you're not getting those beneficial effects. So the Sarah thrive system in particular is just 10 minutes and it's like three to five times a week. And, and
Julie Michelson: it's not even daily.
Sarah Turner: no, it's not even daily because I also think, you know, maybe the body does, the body needs to.
Julie Michelson: Regenerate or do its thing in between. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: Because every time you, it's almost like exercise, you know, you don't want to do it all the time because the body needs to cover in between. But every time you do it, you kind of strengthen a little bit further than the time before, because you're shining like the body receives the light and, oh, I need to make more light receivers.
So it will do that, you know, if you give it time and then the next time you can tolerate a little bit more light and then the next time and the next time. [Page//00:46:00] So I see it very much like exercise. You know, you want to strengthen the body slowly. And so let the body kind of adapt to the light and not just use it, you know, a hundred percent straight away.
And I think that's borne out in the research. You know, a lot of the data tends to show that there is a middle ground, you know, two little lights, not really going to do much, just about the right amount. It's going to have a great effect. If you overdo it, the effect starts to drop off again. It's just, we can't say numbers, which of course is what everybody wants.
Julie Michelson: But we're all different. So how do you, how do you do that? You can't standardize. And, and I, yeah. And that's where we need to give a little grace and that anecdotal stuff comes into play, right? Like I know my body and I know what feels good. It it, and I love that analogy to exercise because I, I meet so many people, especially that have felt a decline with autoimmunity that are, you know, they will not give up their exercise.
[Page//00:47:00] Because that's where, you know, they've drawn that line in the sand and they're hurt there. It's not serving them because they're over exercising for where their body is right now. And so I love that, that, and we know, and, and if you ask how they feel after they exercise, they'll tell you terrible. I'm like, well, that's information.
And, and, you know, so there's no standard for, for a lot of these things.
Sarah Turner: Know, no, and that's actually a hard lesson. Actually, I found that hard myself because I definitely was one of those people that was maybe doing too much because you hot yoga one night, then I would do a Kung Fu class. Then I'd be doing, because you kind of have a mindset of, you know, you don't want to let your fitness drop off.
Actually, you know, integrating some recovery days is, Oh, what a revelation is very beneficial, you know?
Julie Michelson: No, but it, it's, it was an important thing to bring up and so I'm glad you brought it up with the light too. And then how do you, then you get that where you can actually [Page//00:48:00] feel the benefit of the exercise when you have that rest in between.
Sarah Turner: right. Yeah, and body actually gets that chance to recover and repair, which, you know, is a vital piece, you know, you know, they tell you all the time in yoga, the laying down, you know, this kind of,
Julie Michelson: Shavasana is my favorite pose.
Sarah Turner: It took me a while to get it and now I think, yeah, you can apply that to a lot of these different therapies. You know, even with some of the nutrition, you know, you don't want to kind of do the same supplements over and over again, maybe cycle things through because the body, again, it's that whole flexibility thing.
It likes to be able to rest and recover, grow a little bit more, you know, it's a cyclical thing. So yeah, I think to, to kind of come back on your thing about contraindications, that that's really. As about as much of a side effect or a contraindication that there is. So, I mean, certain things like epilepsy potentially could be a contraindication.
Julie Michelson: about that. I was curious. Yeah.
Sarah Turner: Again, there's a lot of studies to show that it, [Page//00:49:00] that photobiomodulation is actually effective for epilepsy. So I think it is a case of doing the research and working out what works for you. I mean, certainly it's not going into the eyes. So all of
Julie Michelson: Right. Right. It's not like wearing a mask with lights or, yeah. Yeah. And I think, and the cancer thing, I, I, I totally, I'm familiar with the concerns there. And, and I wouldn't, I won't be surprised when science comes out to say, no, you know, light is still okay. I, we have a, I have a medical grade laser and, and was using it on my dogs and I, and my horses and myself.
And I had, and then I had a dog diagnosed with cancer. And so I, I did stop using it on her because I don't know for sure. Right. And, and so
Sarah Turner: And with all of these things, you know, we're talking, I mean, I, I. I'm not qualified to talk about medical conditions
Julie Michelson: Sure.
Sarah Turner: With all of these things, check it out [Page//00:50:00] with a medical professional. And if you've got someone who knows about these things. But I think more and more medical specialists will start to look at this.
And you'll be able to see a specialist oncologist or whatever the condition is who will be able to kind of guide people through the process. But right now we're not really there. So it's really. And people to take their own responsibility to do their own due diligence. And if in doubt, check it out with a qualified doctor and then you know that you're kind of doing the best thing for you.
Julie Michelson: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. So I always ask at the end of the podcast, For one step that listeners can take today, and it can be anything so it could be something we've covered or not to start to improve their health.
Sarah Turner: Well, I would kind of encourage everybody to take a bit of an inventory. Of their light exposure over the day, and maybe do it for a week, just do a little inventory and see what was the [Page//00:51:00] first light that you saw in the morning. Was it natural light? Was it artificial light? And what about through your day?
Were you mainly in natural light? Did you go outside? And if you were in artificial light, was it kind of, And in a fluorescent office or kind of did you manage to get yourself next to a window. And just to gain a bit more awareness about your light environment because we're talking a lot about these devices but actually a lot of these devices are mimicking sunlight, you know, and, and so a lot of the effect comes from giving your body like that it can deal with and it can manage you know if you are exposed to too much blue light and it's ironic we're kind of talking on this technology.
Julie Michelson: my blockers on.
Sarah Turner: Yeah. It's daytime here so I'm kind of data, but certainly in the evening, yeah, put your blue blockers on, you know, check all the screens. But I think first of all, you need to kind of see what you're dealing with, because I think for a lot of people, it's like the Fuji that you don't realize until you start to really notice it.
Julie Michelson: pay attention.
Sarah Turner: Something [Page//00:52:00] very simple, like only seeing artificial light first thing in the morning could, could really be a game changer for some. Some people, you know, if you're someone, if you're that person, who's looking at the news before you've even got out of bed, try a week where you don't do that. And you maybe stick your head out the window or even better go and stand on your grass for 10 minutes, do some Tai Chi or something. I think I would, my first challenge would be just take an inventory. What, what light you've been exposed to and how do you, did you feel in each situation? You know, if you're in this fluorescent office, did you feel as good as if you were walking outside?
Julie Michelson: Never, not for me.
Sarah Turner: About
Julie Michelson: But I think that's, it's brilliant because we can't improve upon or make change with when we don't have the awareness. It's always the first step. So absolutely brilliant. Sarah, thank you so much. You have given us a lot to think about and to do today.
Sarah Turner: yeah, it's my pleasure and it was so nice to see you again after seeing you. Yeah, it was [Page//00:53:00] great.
Julie Michelson: Good to see you as well. For everyone listening, remember you can get the transcripts and show notes by visiting inspiredliving. show. I hope you had a great time and enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'll see you next week. [Page//00:54:00]
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Sarah Turner
Sarah Turner has a postgraduate degree in Clinical Neuroscience from Roehampton University in London. She also holds BSc degrees in Psychological Sciences and Nutritional Medicine from Westminster University and Thames Valley University, respectively. Currently, she is pursuing a diploma in Photobiomodulation at the University of Montpellier in France. Sarah's primary focus lies in photobiomodulation, which involves utilizing specific light wavelengths and pulsed frequencies to enhance optimal functioning, with a specific emphasis on brain-related issues. As the Co-Founder and CEO of CeraThrive, she spearheads the production of a red light therapy system that specifically targets the gut-brain connection.
Additionally, Sarah co-hosts a weekly Biohacking podcast titled 'Rebel Scientist' alongside Russ. The podcast features interviews with a diverse range of cutting-edge health experts, with a primary focus on topics such as wellness, longevity, and health optimization.
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